Beating deity on archipelago

alexti2

Prince
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Oct 29, 2005
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Finally, I've got reliably working strategy of defeating deity AI on archipelago maps ("Play Now" settings).

Good nations to play are financial+organized, financial+industrious,financial+philosophical,financial+expansive,organized+industrious etc...

They first key goal is to get Great Lighthouse for +2 trade routes. That means initial stage will require researching sailing early on. Last step in beeline is masonry, so that your capital can construct lighthouse while you're researching masonry. First tech to research typically would be mining to let you construct mines around your capital and open way to bronze working and masonry. There's a decision to make whether to chop forests or not. If you've got lucky to get fresh water on your starting island, I'd say chop forests. If not, that's difficult call. If you have good production bonuses around or if forests are on the plain or if I'm industrious, I'd keep [most] of the forests. Otherwise chop. The choice of first city placement is related to this. Getting one or better 2 food sources within capital range is a must, which is not usually a problem. Of course, you also must place capital on the coast, which is really not much of constrain on archipelago. Starting with fresh water will allow you to chop more forests. Secondary consideration is to place the capital so that it's close to the center of your future empire. It's more of a guesswork on the first 1-2 turns, so it's secondary consideration.

Typically, starting build sequence would be worker, fishing boat/warrior, settler,lighthouse,great lighthouse. But it depends on nation you play and commerce/production balance. It takes a bit of micromanagement so that your tech advances and building go in sync. With this plan getting Great Lighthouse is almost certain (I've missed it only once). However, Great Lighthouse is really critical, so if in doubt, put all efforts into it (the capital doesn't necessary have to grow while building it).

I prefer to build a settler before the great lighthouse, but if I'm not industrious and don't have not much production bonuses or forests, I'd skip settler to secure Great Lighthouse. If on opposite, I've started as production powerhouse, I'd build galley/fishing boat (galley if there isn't enough room for another city on my starting island) and go exploring. Depending on timing, the first fishing boat, can spend couple turns looking around before starting to work the resource. The goal of the second boat is to establish foreign contacts and try to circumvent the globe.

Next cities placement. I will often prefer to settle another good island before putting another city on my starting island. Securing resources is obviously important consideration. The goal of initial phase is to have established couple of city that are going to be production heavy and another 1-2 which will concentrate on commerce while having somewhat reasonable production base (so that they can build buildings and national wonders reasonably quickly.

The next priority is to exploit your resources and discover new, which means getting some required technologies (animal husbandry, iron working etc).

Meanwhile, your galley/boat has gathered some info and that's the first moment when things can go really wrong. If you're on isolated cluster with no way to get out by the coast, that's a big problem (and that's the only really bad kind of start for this strategy). Waiting until astronomy is hopeless, I think, because you'll never catch up with AI in time without tech trading and foreign trade routes. So there're 2 options here. The first one is cultural bridge. If you're separated by narrow ocean straight 1-2 tiles wide (sometimes can only be deduced by guesswork) you can place the city on the shore and build obelisk which will result in a cultural bridge reasonably soon. This implies that you should consider possibility of this situation when placing your cities and to explore in such way to recognize this setup as soon as possible. If this doesn't work, you will have to switch to cultural race strategy.

The following phase is development of your empire. 2 production cities should build barracks and start to build military. First way is of the cheapest kind, to provide lone defenders to your new cities. Then they can switch to some better units that you'll use in later wars. Few archers, more catapults, swordsmen (if you got iron) are good investment. Naval power is going to be important, so you also need to build few galley. Early on, 5-6 galleys should be enough to sink enemy invasion if one happens. Those galleys should patrol on likely approach routes (so that you have time to gather all your galleys together before attacking the enemy fleet). In some cases AI may actually declare war without any invasion force. In this case just protect your fishing resources. But with this strategy AI will probably not attack you at all. All this time keep expanding and build new cities. With the great lighthouse, the coastal city with lighthouse and harbor will be making decent amount of commerce, so no reason not to build them. Especially, if you can get couple of sea foods and hill or two. Even tiny 1-tile islands with 2 sea foods around can sustain a good town. Just use slavery to convert food into buildings. If you play organized, build courthouses quickly as well to cut down on the maintenance. In any case, maintenance at this stage is going to be high, so be prepared to drop research rate down to 30%, 20% or worse. There's no reason to worry here, as your cities grow you'll be in much better shape.

Diplomacy. At this phase I'm trying to maintain decent relations with everybody, trade resources (those many small cities should have secured you plenty of extra resources which can be sold to AI for gold) and technologies. Keep open borders running on maximum. Foreign trade routes are really profitable. I don't adopt any state religions (and I don't research religious techs until I need them for something else).

Age of wars. The first serious war I plan will start when I get Steel (I make it a high priority). At the same time I'm preparing plenty of catapults and some gold reserves to do one turn upgrade. Somewhere along the line I've switched to Vassalage, so that most of them have city raider x 2 promotion and few barrage x 2. Other military units are grenadiers (some with forest defense + 2, others with hill defense + 2) and some melee units with city raider promotions. That means grenadiers has to be built last, and catapult and melee unit recruitment has to be completed earlier. And of course I have navy prepared to carry and protect my army. Next step is to choose the victim. Sometimes, there's no choice, because somebody got a big lead, won't trade anything with you and keep declaring war on you. In more fortunate circumstances you can select some neighbour from whom you can grab some good cities not too far away. But keep in mind that you still need to have good relationships with some AI who will tech-trade with you. Your first goal is to go for islands with good cities and resources (but not AI home islands, those will be too costly to conquer at this stage). Don't upgrade your melee units, but bring them into the war. They may get another city raider promotion cleaning up AI units invalidated by cannons. Then you can upgrade them into grenadiers (who can't get city raider otherwise). The military campaign should be well planned in all aspects, because you want to make your invasions quick and efficient. The window for this wars is rather short, because AI will soon get machine gunners and you'll have hard time to take their cities. Medic ships are useful to heal troops in transit. My navy on this stage consists of Frigates and Galleons. I won't keep going for the same AI. Typically I'd take couple of good nearby cities from one AI, make peace with him and attach another AI for another couple of cities. I don't mind giving them something afterwards to bring relations back to acceptable level (somethinglike cautous). This age ends when AI gets machine guns.

Empire buildup II. At this period I'm running hereditary rule, vassalage and slavery. I still keep producing military units in my production cities, but other cities build infrastructure. Ex-AI cities are usually handled in the same fasion. Rush theatre, rush lighthouse or harbor. This way instead of starving its population brings something useful. This makes those cities pretty good very quickly. One of them may become my shipyard (with drydocks), another can be 3rd production center, others can concentrate on science and money. I keep city defenses to the minimum (1 cheap unit) and just patrol seas with plenty of frigates. At this stage, AI is becoming less and less willing to trade tech, so I mostly rely on my own to research to railroads and artillery. When I get there, it's another age of wars.

Age of wars II. This time I upgrade my cannons to artillery and some of grenadiers with hill/forest defense promotions to machine guns. I still keep building grenadiers rather than machine guns, so that I can choose hill/forest promotions. Then I upgrade them. Now I invade somebody who hasn't got many [any] destroyers. Meanwhile I'm researching for destroyers myself and then quickly upgrade my fleet. Machine guns and infantry can't really protect AI from my army and I rarely lose more than 1-2 artilleries to take the city. At this stage I can take AI's home islands. This pretty much decides the game, because I become by far the biggest and strongest. Here priority becomes to clubber the leading AI to make sure he's not getting anywhere close to his spaceship. My research priorities here are biology and rocketry. My target military goal is to get infantry and SAM infantry. In fact, it's pretty much enough to take anything. City raider x 3 artillery and infantries can take care of offensive and AI can't do much against defenders with +2 hill/forest bonuses. I have to leave strong cities that have no appropriate nearby tiles for later though.

Cultural race strategy. In principle, it's a viable strategy on its own, however my main strategy works much better, so I revert to cultural race strategy only in the case described above, when I'm isolated from the rest of the world.

In this strategy, the 3 cultural cities has to have plenty of tiles around, with choice of production and commerce squares, because you'll want to switch them. It's important to build cottages early here and not rely on sea squares for commerce. Generally, I'd convert mines into windmills later in the game when many buildings are already finished. In this cirumstances you won't get any religions until late, so the goal is to grow those cities large. Research goal in this case is liberalism. You won't be researching far in this strategy. I'm ignoring naval power in this strategy and just build decent amount of troops, so that AI won't attack me. I don't plan to invade with them, so the choice of units is not critical. The main problem here is to get cultural victory before Ai gets space victory. Actually, I've never managed it :) But I came several times just a few turns short, so it's doable with some more micromanagement or some more luck. As your main cities get to the cap (health/happiness) start adding new cities which you'll need later to build supporting temples when you start building cathedrals. That's where production base in your cultural cities will become important, because you need to build those fast. Strangely enough, I wouldn't worry about cultural cities actually producing culture. Anyway, the bulk of culture points will be made in a final rush, when you have few cathedrals and set culture to 100% (at that time all other cities just build wealth to cover your expenses). Unfortunately, there's no good way to rush cathedrals, because you don't want to sacrifice population and you don't have gold/tech to rush for gold.
 
Hey, thanks. I played diety and survived. Can you share more of your tech priorities? Do you try for any wonders other than lighthouse? Tips for diety level trading of tech?
 
I'm surprised you aren't going for Kremlin and Universal Suffrage. Wouldn't that be very effective after the start that you describe?
 
DaviddesJ said:
I'm surprised you aren't going for Kremlin and Universal Suffrage. Wouldn't that be very effective after the start that you describe?
By the time you can get them, the game is pretty much decided. I don't know if you can get Kremlin reliably, I've never tried. Often I was concerned about some AI getting close to space victory, so I've preferred to have all my production cities cranking out units. That's not necessarily optimal, just sufficient to win :)
 
alexti2 said:
By the time you can get them, the game is pretty much decided.

Well, you can get Communism shortly after Steel. It seems like it should be a huge advantage at that point, but, I've never tried this sort of game.
 
kingdarius said:
Hey, thanks. I played diety and survived. Can you share more of your tech priorities? Do you try for any wonders other than lighthouse? Tips for diety level trading of tech?
Wonders:
---------
- I will take Colossus if I can, but I won't be beelining for it. It's not that important, but it's a bonus.
- If I'm industrious and if I have stone I will build Pyramids.
- On tiny and maybe small maps I will try to get Great Library.

I don't build any other wonders.

Technologies:
-------------
I don't really have a rigid structure here, but there're few key points:
- get bronze working early for chopping
- get sailing and masonry for Great Lighthouse and for coast trading
- get writing for open borders
- get alphabet for tech trading (AI usually doesn't research it, so it's double useful)
- somewhere in between I'll get improvement techs that I need (depending on what resources I've got around)
- Monarchy to handle happiness
- Currency is important tech because it adds trade route and gold trading
- Compass allows harbor which helps with health and increases your trade route yield by 50%
- Calendar is usually needed for happy resources
- Research construction reasonably early to start building catapults

Further in the game I beeline for Steel (for cannons) getting Chemistry for Frigates in the process. Next goal will be to get to Artillery.

Whenever possible I'm trying to research something AI don't and then trade it. Alphabet, Civil Service, Paper, Gunpowder, Chemistry and Steel seem to be techs AI doesn't favor much, so I often get there first and trade them for something else. Don't sit on technologies. If you can't trade your tech for another tech, sell it for gold. AI will get it very soon anyway.

Later in the game, I'll be aiming for replaceable parts -> steam power -> railroads to get production bonuses.

Final level is biology (for growth), Rocketry (for SAM Infantry) and Combustion (for destroyers and transports). Researching further is unnecessary I think.
 
What financial leader do you like for this:
Qin - industrious, mining/ag, cho ko nu
Huana Capac - aggressive - ag/myst, quecha
Vicky - Expansive - fish,mining, redcoat
Liz - philosophical - fish,mining, redcoat
Washington - organized - fishing, ag, seal
Mansa - spiritual - mining&wheel, skirmisher .
Cathy - creative - hunting/mining, cossack.


I'm leaning towards Vicky for good starting techs and health. While not a problem early, health seems to become a problem after monarchy. Cheap granaries and harbors are a good thing. None of the UU's above seem that compelling on Archipelgo/Deity.
 
DaviddesJ said:
Well, you can get Communism shortly after Steel. It seems like it should be a huge advantage at that point, but, I've never tried this sort of game.
Not that shortly. You need Philosophy, Education, Liberalism, Printing Press and Scientific Methods. Besides to get Universal suffrage you'll need Nationalism, Constitution and Democracy. And out of those only Printing Press and Scientific Methods are in a "soon useful" branch
 
kingdarius said:
What financial leader do you like for this:
Qin - industrious, mining/ag, cho ko nu
Huana Capac - aggressive - ag/myst, quecha
Vicky - Expansive - fish,mining, redcoat
Liz - philosophical - fish,mining, redcoat
Washington - organized - fishing, ag, seal
Mansa - spiritual - mining&wheel, skirmisher .
Cathy - creative - hunting/mining, cossack.


I'm leaning towards Vicky for good starting techs and health. While not a problem early, health seems to become a problem after monarchy. Cheap granaries and harbors are a good thing. None of the UU's above seem that compelling on Archipelgo/Deity.
I think that in my strategy UU are pretty much irrelevant.

ind+fin, exp+fin, org+fin are all very good (org+fin I think is the strongest). Financial + Philosophical is interesting, but perhaps will work better if the strategy is somewhat adjusted to make use of GP.

Fin+agg is a waste of a trait a bit. The strategy is not heavy on melee and gunpowder units and I don't think extra Combat I will help much. Barracks and drydocks cost isn't that much of advantage either.

Fin+creative - creative trait is not that good on archipelago, because land grab is not culture based. 1/2 for theatre is nice, but they're not very expensive anyway.

Fin+spiritual - probably the worst combo. No anarchy is nice, but I change civics only few times. And I don't have a religion until much later, when the cost of a temple is not a problem. Maybe if you decide to go for cultural win and try to rush to religions it will work better.
 
alexti2 said:
Not that shortly. You need Philosophy, Education, Liberalism, Printing Press and Scientific Methods. Besides to get Universal suffrage you'll need Nationalism, Constitution and Democracy. And out of those only Printing Press and Scientific Methods are in a "soon useful" branch

I guess I was expecting that a lot of those would already be had by multiple AIs and you can get by trading. I should really try a game like this for myself. Thanks for all of the info.
 
DaviddesJ said:
I guess I was expecting that a lot of those would already be had by multiple AIs and you can get by trading.
AI would usually have them, but they wouldn't trade them to you. In the later stages they tend to stop tech trading with you. Even if you're friendly with them.
 
alexti2 said:
Besides to get Universal suffrage you'll need Nationalism, Constitution and Democracy.

Or, you might capture the Pyramids. Which brings to mind another idea: you might try to get the Kremlin not by building it but by capturing it once one of the AIs builds it. Not a foolproof strategy, but perhaps something to keep in mind.
 
First of all:
clap
clap
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I've never played on Deity, and archipelago, couse I'm still trying to beat this damn game on emperor on continents standard map and settings with Qin, I've won only on tiny maps :)

Thanks very much for the post, I'll try the strategy first on emperor just to learn to manage the war on sea.

BTW wich is usually the number of your cities near 100 BC? Do you use GP as super citizens or prefer academies, gold ages or anything else?
I'd like to see some screenshot or save in early/mid game just to understand better your strategy.
Thanks in advance :)
 
DaviddesJ said:
Or, you might capture the Pyramids. Which brings to mind another idea: you might try to get the Kremlin not by building it but by capturing it once one of the AIs builds it. Not a foolproof strategy, but perhaps something to keep in mind.
That's a good point. Actually I'm pretty sure that I've captured AI cities with Pyramids in few games, but I've never given it a second thought :)
 
alexti2 said:
That's a good point. Actually I'm pretty sure that I've captured AI cities with Pyramids in few games, but I've never given it a second thought :)

Somehow it's a bit unintuitive to think of invading another country and capturing a 4000 year old relic so that you can give your citizens the right to vote. :)
 
Tauro said:
BTW wich is usually the number of your cities near 100 BC? Do you use GP as super citizens or prefer academies, gold ages or anything else?
I'd like to see some screenshot or save in early/mid game just to understand better your strategy.
Here's save from 125BC. Quick inventorization shows that I had 6 citites.

I don't generate much GP. I'd usually get couple of scientists to build academies in commercial cities. If I get Great Merchant (especially early) I will send him to collect 1000gold which is a big sum at that stage. Other GPs I will usually spend on tech, or join them as superspecialists.
 
It looks somebody was reading this thread...

I've tried a game with Elizabeth with 1.52. First bad news was that there's 2 gold upkeep right from the start. That hurts! Somebody has beaten me to Great Lighthouse and there wasn't much I could do about it (I got pretty poor start though). Then Mansa Musa has beaten me to circumnavigation bonus. By the time I got alphabet everybody already got it and they've traded all their techs. Now there're groups of 2-3 [empty] galleys from various nations circulating near my islands. Hey, that was supposed to be *my* strategy...
 
Thx alexti :)
Is it 1.09?
I keep waiting to upgrade :)
Six cities means that you must have a VERY strong economy :worship:
 
I'd like to see screen shots from your finance screen on the diety win. My experience on higher levels is that you die a slow death since your economic costs slowly pull you down. Researching military techs and building units, plus adding cities on Diety mean you are going to be researching at 10% very quickly in order to pay for your empire. If on the other hand you have found a way to offset the cost-of-empire I would be very interested to see how you accomplished that:) .
 
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