Gauntlet Two

[superslug]

[Edit]

This Gauntlet is now finished. Congratulations to Orca for coming both 1st and 2nd with a 2760BC and a 2000BC Large Monarch Conquest, and Big Ben for coming 3rd with 1970BC.

[/Edit]

While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the first Gauntlet.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!

Any submissions meeting the following criteria will be considered Gauntlet entries:

• Difficulty: Monarch
• Mapsize: Large
• Victory: Conquest (though ALL victory conditions must be enabled!)
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Speed: Marathon
• Submitted on or before: January 9th.
• Patch: 1.52 (Please note that there are new settings with this patch, and there are HOF rules about them-

  New Random Seed on Reload (1.52 only) - Must not be checked
  No Cheating (1.52 only) - Must be checked
  
  Marathon is allowed, still covered by the "Any game speed may be used."

  !)

Whichever game has the earliest finish date will be declared the victor. The winner (and settings for the next Gauntlet) will be announced with the next Hall of Fame update.

While each map can only be played once, players are more than welcome to generate new maps and submit multiple games. Also, as everyone is playing their own distinct maps, there is no need for spoiler limitation within the forum. In fact, we encourage detailed posting of strategy and gameplay, although all conversation about this Guantlet should stay within this thread.

Any games not finished before the submission cutoff may still be submitted to the Hall of Fame as general entries.

New players:
Please note that we need two files for Hall of Fame submissions. A save from your initial 4000bc turn, and the turn after you win. For the last file, when you win the game, you'll be displayed your sequence of victory screens and then be prompted if you wish to exit or play "just a few more turns". Select just a few more turns, and then save the game immediately without playing further.

[panzooka]

map size large. min 5 AI

so what strategy u all gonna use?
team battleground map is really small, i think i'll do that again.

[Gazaridis]

Large Monarch Marathon Conquest.

I started off with a Terra map. Looking back I really can't see the appeal, but I just feel those maps are fun to play so always find an excuse. Im a few horus into a game, and this one is really gonna take hours. Playing as Huayna Capac (Aggr/Fin) with those lovely little Quechua warriors who have a 100% bonus against archers. My options were simply No Cheating, and against 12 random opponents (yes I thought it'd be fun. It is!). I've got a little diary which I kept as I played, just to run through what I'm doing.

At the start was on a Northern coast right next to 3 clams, with another clam 2 squares SW. Took the plunge and founded Cuzco (hereafter known as Tescos) 1S to get 4 clams, but without sea access. After a little scouting I find Louis XIV to my south, and try taking Paris early with two Quechua. Both die So I build up a few more and then....

1740 BC: France Destroyed.
1540 BC: Declare war on Gandhi (West)
1380 BC: Make Peace with Gandhi (one city on hill left, 2 archers vs 4 Quechua? Not worth the trouble). Capital wasn't worth keeping, kept Bombay to get sea access.
1270 BC: Declare war on Victoria (far West). Can't be bothered to wait for Open Borders to get three veteran Quechuas out from a corner near Nottingham, theres an unguarded worker next to a Quechua of mine, and I might as well cos Ive nothing better to do and Ceasar is only cautious towards her.

Maps included as attachments


1140 BC: Declare war on Frederick (far South), because I've got a few Quechuas not doing much. Got a thick slab of Ceasar cutting my three-cty empire into three. Can't wait for him to get writing.
1120 BC: Get a look at London - it has 5 workable land tiles in its radius. No thanks, not worth the effort. I pillage Vickys last improvement then agree peace. Made 41 gold out of that war, not great but useful.
1110 BC: Convert to Buddhism. Get 117 gold in booty while razing Cologne. That's why I love Quechua.
1040 BC: 69 gold from razing Munich
980 BC: Ceaser converts to Judaism - so do I. I'm already giving him my only clam, we need to be bestest buds. Currently sizing up Berlin for razing. Next turn, Peter cancels open borders with me but I discover Iron Working and find Iron next to Cuzco!
920 BC: Battle of Berlin: 7 Quechua vs 3 Archers. 2 Quchua sacrifice themselves, one went in with the intention of sacrifice but came out with a 20% chance victory, and my goal-hanging promotion mongers finished the job! Two workers, 89 gold and another pile of rubble. Who needs cottages?? You know, Ive still only got three cities, and one of those is pretty useless at the moment as its surrounded by jungle. A war of conquest against Ceasar is looking might tempting right now.
850 BC: Frankfurt razed, 109 gold.
800 BC: Battle of Hamburg. 8 Quechua (6 vets) vs 2 Garrison I Archers. I win with one loss, get about 130 gold and raze it. Nice city, shame its on the other side of the world. Fredrick killed in his underwear. Peace descends on the earth as now 2 of my 12 opponents are very peaceful indeed, while two others are crying in the corner. Next target: Ceasar's soft exposed underbelly, which I'm going to bring some swordsmen into. Agree open borders to scout things out and cancel my free clams. Current status: Three cities, R/G/E 27/14/23 @ 70% (of which 12 unit cost 4 supply), 351 in treasury. Researched Sailing, Pottery, Writing, Agriculture, Mysticism and Iron working.

I've noticed when I send two noob Quechua in as a sacrifice, the second one almost always seems to win. Very odd indeed, perhaps a bug? Then again, I did lose a 99% certain victory so I guess I've got a lot of karma in the bank. Urban Hymns finishes. Put on Vespertine. While Im writing this, Peter plonks a city right outside Tesco's blocking me in, and says he might agree open borders "in a few years". I wait patiently (for now) and switch to no religion to help speed things up.

660 BC: I get ready to strike Ceasar. He has two cities between Tescos and Paris - Pisae slightly east, Neapolis slightly west (Rome is to the west). Pisae has 4 archers, Neapolis 2 Archers and a wall on a hill. I get 5 Swordsmen and 5 Quechuas on the border of Pisae, but declare war one turn early as one of Neapolis' Archers has come outside to kill a barbarian so take the opportunity to get some blood on my new swords! Next turn, I move on Pisae and find 2 of the archers missing, but walls having just gone up.

640 BC: 100+ gold from Pisae!
610 BC: 77 Gold from capturing Arretium (just next to Tescos). At this point I realise at 0% science Im losing 3 gold per turn. This alarms me as I had intended on capturing at least three more cities. A glance at F2 shows me over 60% of my expenses are to my units either in costs are supply.
600 BC: Take Neapolis for 150 gold. Archers in city with walls on a hill killed even some swordsmen, but I allowed a 16XP Quechua to finish it off so I have a level 5 unit
560 BC: Take Antium for 114 gold. Recently, Saladin declared war on Hatty far far away, and Mao cancelled open borders with me. Start building a library in Paris as the forests are now gone.
510 BC: Converging on Rome, Ceasar whips up a fifth archer, then uses it to leave the city and attack my Quechua fortified in a forest. Granted it was the best target, but you do wonder about the I in AI at times like this.
490 BC: Ceasar finishes off my Quechua in the woods, but that means one less archer in Rome. Seeing as I have 6 Swordsmen and 5 Quechua at the gates, I send em in. 122 Gold.
420 BC: I raze Ravenna for about 90 gold. Wonder where the hell his last city, Arpinnium, is. Decide I can't really be bothered and declare peace. Save game and go to bed.

So as of now that's two enemies wiped out, three crippled and seven untouched. It might seem odd having lots of enemies, but it helps for two reasons. At Monarch I just can't get settlers out fast enough and Marathon (this is my first game at that speed) seems to give the AI an even bigger starting advantage. I havent built a single settler, I took Paris from Louis and Bombay from Gandhi until I was ready to get rid of Ceasar. Also, all the enemies means there's loads of cities around from the very beginning. This means loadsamoney! Getting 100 gold every few turns keeps the books balanced, even though I've been running at -20gpt. My advice to people choosing start options is to get loads of enemies in. Terra probably not best map choice, in fact I know its not cos my pre-bonus score will be dreadful, but pack in those AIs. They build cities so you don't have to! Also, if playing as Incas don't be tempted by Axemen. They're double the cost for only slightly more bang against archers than Quechua. Unless you're fighting Spearmen, they'll be pointless and I haven't found a spearman yet. Also, for most of this I've only had 2 meaningful cities, Tescos and Paris. Bombay has jsut been pumping out work boats really. You don't need loads of cities to get a good army.

[superslug]

Moderator Action: Threads merged.
I think we should try and keep all the BG2 posts together while the competition is in progress.

[panzooka]

i played one with tokugawa (agg/org)
my idea is that aggressive, u get free promotion
organised, so u can build courthouses quickly
and japanese UU comes right in time, quechas are good but in monarch difficulty, AI starts off with too many archers.

my first assult begins when i got bronze and my first axeman, rush into ghandi's territory and pillage his copper. then i churn out axeman with cover promotion, and very soon, i killed india, now fighting with persia.
and soon, i ran out of money, and my units all went striking.
this is before i could build courthouses.

my next game i gonna build more workers, have them chop rush courthouses.

this is probably im not used to marathon games, because the speed setting, the units builds much faster than research than normal and epic speed

[MetHimPikeHoses]

Gazaridids-- are you building anything BUT Quechas in this game? What other improvements do you have in your cities? And are your Q's promoted? Thanks.

[diamond geezer]

Not gone for a Conquest victory before. How do you do it without triggering Domination?

[LordCopenhagen]

Not gone for a Conquest victory before. How do you do it without triggering Domination?

Raze most of the captured cities, keep only the ones you need and keep going.

[Peepers]

@diamond geezer

Not gone for a Conquest victory before. How do you do it without triggering Domination?

So far, I've found it easier to achieve Con VCs than Dom, because of the new requirements for Dom. Unless you're a culture-monger and can quickly expand your borders, it is more difficult to get the %land that you need without having too many cities to support.

[Gazaridis]

Originally Posted by MetHimPikeHoses

Gazaridids-- are you building anything BUT Quechas in this game? What other improvements do you have in your cities? And are your Q's promoted? Thanks.

I built a barracks very early on in my capital (probably after I built my third Quechua), and soon after I captured Paris. After that, it was all Quechua all the time until about 800 BC, when I started the switch to Swordsmen. At about 100 AD I think I build Libraries in those two and set them to maximise commerce. This was a very tough lean period in terms of both income and manpower - they were the best cities to generate income(which is needed for research) but early on they are abysmal as cottages need time to get going. The switch had to be made sometime, and while they were on commerce they put out the odd axemen or Quechua. I left the bulk of the production to my new Roman cities, but they were still in infancy. Later on, in my Roman cities I built libraries and barracks, and maybe an obelisk. I considered starting over (as you can read in the diary), especially as at that time my army was being pulled in three directions, it was too small to cope with a war on two fronts but big enough to cost a lot. I was saved when Mao got currency, and I was then able to extort 390 gold from him to keep me afloat You need to get your cottages into hamlets well before money becomes a problem, if you're financial this means +2 gold each plot which makes a real difference. In the end I have to say in that situation, you have no option but to use those units. If you win, raze the cities and keep the cash. If you lose, it's less upkeep. If they just sit there then you wont keep afloat. And yes, my units (initially Quechua, then Swordsmen and a few Axemen) are promoted. Most go along the City Raider line, but a couple of Quechua and Axemen went for supporting roles, such as medic or cover or shock. Right now, I've got two Swordsmen on I think 25 and 24 XP out of 27. To deal with your happiness problems, get Hereditary Rule, then Alphabet and extort Calendar off someone else. To deal with money problems, wait for someone to get currency and don't be afraid to demand money off (almost) everyone at every opportunity!

Today's play is in the spoiler bit - tough times at the start but its moving into plain sailing (especially the final turn). Starting picture and one of Egypt 2 turns before the end are attached.

Spoiler:

420 BC: RGE 30/35/71 @50% (18 unit cost 4 supply)
260 BC: Income running out fast have 71 gold, -8gpt@10%. Gathering forces to pillage Japan. Giving ivory to Khan(NW of Rome) and Mao(S of Paris) to try and keep em sweet while I attack their buddy (Mao is already annoyed with me though). Change to Buddhism to try and keep Khan happy.
240 BC: Declare war on Japan! I need to take Tokyo in 2 turns time or my money will start running out - 54 gold, -14gpt@0%! Ack!
230 BC: 92 gold from Tokyo! Not enough.
190 BC: 116 from Osaka. Lost a couple of swordsmen though to the two fortified axemen.
90 BC: Got some absolutely dreadful rolls the past century, routinely losing 60-80% fights, one swordsman left so make peace having razed a few more cities. Ive also sent 4 Quechua out to defeat a barbarian archer sitting on a hut, theyve all had 50%+ chances but all defeated, even when i sent two together.


70 BC: Peter declares war. *(!"£&£""*-*. Especially because all my forces are in the west, and peter is to the east. I pause Rings Around the World in fustration, go downstairs for a cuppa tea and a sticky bun. Put slippers on.
20 BC: I've researched Mathemetics! Although I forget why. Memo for next time: Going for monarchy is a better idea. Send an axemen to kill that barb archer - 60.8% AND HE STILL LOSES! THIS IS STUPID!
5 AD: Hooray Jesus is born! No-one's found him yet apparantly. Raze rostov with two sub-40% chariot attacks and take 75 for my trouble. Quechuas still proving useful, even now!
55 AD: For the past half century, my chariots have been seiging Novogrod, facing exactly identical Russian Chariots. We've just been sitting around taking potshots for my swordsmen and axemen to arrive at the east from the west, which they are within one turn of doing. However, now Mao (to the South) has declared war on me. This is turning in to a bit of a headache. Next turn, I finally barge in on Novogrod, and take 114 gold before burning it to the ground. The question is what to do now - move in on Peter's heartlands or pull back for Mao, who hasn't really moved anything into position these past two turns. And where the hell has Ceasar gone to?
100 AD: Take Moscow for 193. Im in a bit of a bind here, either I can emphasise commerce and tread water at 0% science while not researching anything and producing little, or go for it and lose 37 a turn. This is certainly a challenge.
115 AD: Raze St Petersburg for 107. Starting to think this game is a lost cause. Peter only has one city left, but my economy is a mess. In order to research Monarchy in 25 turns I get -38/turn, and thats producing not enough units to replace losses let alone get a second front going.
125 AD: Alexander asks me to join in with a rumble on Gandhi, I accept and intend to do nothing. Gain 75 gold from Scythian, this wiping out the Russians. Huzzah! Now on to the chinese, who haven't put up any effort to attack me. On the other side of the map, 40 gold from Tianjin, a small city in place of a Japanese one I razed earlier.
130 AD: 149 from Nanjing. Demand 200 off Saladin, he complies. Not quite ready to take the Chinese homeland yet, so agree a 10-turn postponement for 390 gold and 2gpt. Peace at last. Change to judaism to mollify Alexander as Im about to beat up his best mate. 1184 gold in treasury, 49/60/99@40% (35 unit cost, 9 supply).


185 AD: Discover why Im losing money hand over fist: 18 Swordsmen, three axemen and three chariots waltz towards Shanghai.
195 AD: Capture Shanghai and get 123 gold. keep it as it is the Jewish holy city. Great Scientist Born in bombay! Check city screen to see max beakers produced anywhere is 12. Keep him in storage.
220 AD: Monarchy! Yay! Set sail for Alphabet(20 turns). Destroy beijing
250 AD: Destroy the Romans, who were defending with a zombie archer. Can't find Mao's last two cities. Make peace with him and get his second city in as part of the bargain.
275 AD: Declare war on Saladin, after extorting 180 gold out of him
285 AD: Razed Saladin's two cities outside of his heartlands for 201 gold. Losing 50 gold per turn at 40% but with 1400 gold in the bank Im really not bothered
315 AD: Alphabet! Got Hunting off Gandhi for peace, Got Masonry nicely off Alex, Calendar off Khan for Meditation, Monarchy and 330 gold. Raze Baghdad for 148.
355 AD: Ooh the cheeky bugger! Saladin captures Pisae with a horse archer, then offers it back plus Polytheism for peace! I reject, as I need to cut off his ivory. Ive seen one war elephant, and I dont wanna see no more! Meanwhile, Shanghai is under seige from three barbarian axemen. Gnarly.
360 AD: Hooray, no more Elephants! Saladin's only one attacks my swordsman from across a river. Tut tut! Also, Shanghai si hanging on by the skin of its teeth, and Mao demanded Calendar from me, which I decided to accept, just because I had no reason not to. Next turn, I raze Mecca and retake Pisae.
Get Currency of Alex for Alphabet and 770 gold. It's a lot but I fear it's the only way I'll get it and the extra trade route is useful. On economy news, Iam at 66/148/155 @30% (of which 46 unit cost 13 supply). A marked improvement. Abandon 4 unneeded captured workers and Im +2! Now my main worry is people are going to start getting war elephants. Mao and Saladin have construction.
390 AD: Saladin has one city left, with a sole archer and I have a full strength swordsmen right next to it. Finally Saladin sees the light and gives me construction in exchange for peace. In the next 10 turns I pillage as much as I can, and get ready for the next big assault - to finish off the eastern half of the island, Hatesheput, whom I give Alphabet to in return for Polytheism, Archery and 720 big boys.

450 AD: Finish Saladin. In the meantime Ive seen Alex go by with 7 Horse Archers, 5 Swordsmen, 4 Axemen, 3 Phalanx. Thats one mean army, and that's the stuff he sends outside his borders to kill barbs! He's going to be tough. Hatty isn't though
460 AD: The trap is sprung. 8 Swordsmen(1 vet) and an axemen on giza, 3 Swordsmen on Byblos, 3 swordsmen(2 vet) and an axemen on Pi-Rameses, and my five finest men on a deep raid into Najran. Poor gal didn't suspect a thing - I spy a freshly built Hindu Missionary in byblos. Picture attached
470 AD: Giza, byblos, Pi-Ramases and Najran (ie: 45% of the Egyptian Empire) wiped from the map in one turn. Beautiful.

[panzooka]

also try to keep your population down, razing cities will not get you more score, just keep your population down, if you have land over the requirement, and population near the requirement, use slavery to build workers, or more troops. and later, u can draft population into troops with nationhood

[superslug]

Initial thread post has been updated with reminders about required settings with the new patch:

New Random Seed on Reload (1.52 only) - Must not be checked
No Cheating (1.52 only) - Must be checked

Marathon is allowed, still covered by the "Any game speed may be used."

[LordCopenhagen]

also try to keep your population down

I've actually never thought of that before. Usually I just raze since I'll go conquest early game where extra cities and population can be troublesome on your finances, but for later conquest games, this will come in very handy.

[Tall German Joe]

Oh wow, with the new combat odds, archers are super hard to crack. I just won a Conquest at 460 A.D. with Qin; my strategy was to beeline for Metal Casting (1140 B.C.) and then use the Oracle to get Machinery. After that, I got Iron Working (luckily, there was an iron a few squares outside of my capital; the first time I tried this strategy, I had no iron ) and then Archery. I attacked in 430 B.C., but didn't defeat Washington until 160 B.C. because he built City Walls in 2 of his cities. Next, I got Construction in 90 B.C. and attacked Hatty in 40 B.C., wiping her out by 100 A.D. Tokogawa fell next (170 A.D. - 325 A.D.), and then Elizabeth (335 A.D. - 430 A.D.). Finally, Gandhi, who was right next to me, fell on 460 A.D.

Washington was to my left, and Ghandi was to my right. I attacked Washington first, and then circled the Globe until I came back around to Ghandi. I had 4 waves of units; the first wave took out Washington, and the remnants joined with the second wave to take out Hatty and then Tokugawa. The second wave joined with the 3rd wave to take out Elizabeth, and then everyone ganged up on Ghandi from all directions. By the way, I really recommend that you choose to play against Tokugawa; he's such a terrible player, he hardly even bothered to build culture or city walls in any of his cities and so my units gained a LOT of xp against him.

I killed 105 Archers and built 82 Chos. I also had a level 8, 50 XP Cho with Drill 1-4, Strength 1 & 2, and Cover. I expected Chos to be a lot more dominating than they were, but I lost a LOT of them early beating my head on Washington's city walls. Archers seem way way too strong after the patch; my chos had to be at least level 3 or 4 to consistanly (at least 70%) win against a fortified archer in a city, and even then I usually had to suicide at least 1.

[Smirk]

Problem with Cho's is that while they have that catapult like ability they can't improve it so its really just a gimmick. Getting real catapults is the only solution to that sort of warring. And I'd expect it would have been easier using any old civ and getting Construction and using whatever unit is available and strong.

[Orca]

I did like first Gauntlet much better. I expect all (experienced) players doing the same and luck will decide winner. I hope i am wrong but after the first try i dont see any other strategie choice that will eventually have a chance to win .

[Tall German Joe]

Originally Posted by Orca

I did like first Gauntlet much better. I expect all (experienced) players doing the same and luck will decide winner. I hope i am wrong but after the first try i dont see any other strategie choice that will eventually have a chance to win .

Yeah, I know what you mean. I just got a 430 B.C. victory, and the strategy is so obvious that I'm not going to even bother posting it. I think there's only 2 or 3 civs that can even compete...

[Tall German Joe]

Originally Posted by Smirk

Problem with Cho's is that while they have that catapult like ability they can't improve it so its really just a gimmick. Getting real catapults is the only solution to that sort of warring. And I'd expect it would have been easier using any old civ and getting Construction and using whatever unit is available and strong.

Nah, pre-patch Chos were really amazing. You just had to suicide a level 2 Cho at a city, and the collateral damage made it so the rest of your stack could take out the city without losing a single battle. It still works for the most part, but early on you might need to suicide 2 Chos on a stronger city until your core military gets to levels 4 and 5.

I also think that using Catapults as city raiders is no longer viable after the patch. Damaged units (especially archers) just aren't as weak as they used to be.

[Denniz]

Originally Posted by Tall German Joe

Yeah, I know what you mean. I just got a 430 B.C. victory, and the strategy is so obvious that I'm not going to even bother posting it. I think there's only 2 or 3 civs that can even compete...

I guess I'm a little slow, but I'm not too to ask.

What was your strategy?

[Mad Dog]

The obvious obvious strategy that I suspect Tall German Joe uses is this:

- Pick a civ with a special unit which is good at capturing cities against archers, spearmen, axemen etc. The obvious choices here are Julius and Quin. You want something that will be available very soon after all expansion room is filled.
- Chop rush everything at the start until there's no more room to expand or you've made it to your special unit.
- Gear cities towards production and build barracks.
- Zerg the crap out of every other civ once special unit is there, using the money from destroying cities to keep the economy alive. It's best to go from strongest to weakest if possible but obviously the time taken to move those units around is crucial.

I tried this with Caesar, but foolishly used 18 civs, thinking it was a domination game, and that more civs would be individually weaker making them easy prey. I'm doing well score wise, but at around 0bc (projectded score of 100k odd) but it will take too long for me to stomp all the 13 other remaining civs cities to get a decent finish date. So I'll be starting again with the minimum number of civs next time. I'm not sure whether to pick peaceful ones or warlike ones. In a way, peaceful is worse as they tend to get the tech advances better.