RB8 - Multiplayer Madness

[Snaproll]

Welcome to RB8 - Multiplayer Madness!

Drasca and I have played the first 30 turns. When setting up the game we decided on a mini-theme for our civ selections.

Difficulty: Prince
Map Script: Continents
Map Size: Standard
Game Speed: Normal
Teams: 2 v 2 v 2
Team 1 - Player Team - Japan (Tokugawa) and Germany (Bismark)
Team 2 - AI Team - England (Victoria) and America (Roosevelt)
Team 3 - AI Team - Mao Zedong (China) and Catherine (Russia)

Inspired by WWII

Variant Rules: See below
Victory: Any
Patch: 1.52

Roster
Team 1 - Snaproll* / Drasca
Team 2 - Morred* / thunderbunny (JUST PLAYED)
Team 3 - Uniqueuponhim* / Atlas (UP!)
Team 4 - Thormodr* / Chriseay (ON DECK)

Alternate 1 - open
Alternate 2 - open
Alternate 3 - open

* denotes reporting player (see below)

[b]We are still accepting more interested players for a possible 4th team and / or alternates.

Special Rules

Got it / Reporting time limits - The standard 24/48 for reporting and posting will be modified somewhat. There will still be a 24 hour limit for announcing a "got it", but then you will have a full 96 hours to play. This is to accomodate the increased logistical challenge of finding a time when both players are available. Of course, the faster the better. You still just play ten turns, so the time commitment isn't extreme once the game is set up.

Reporting - Each turn, only one team member is responsible for reporting (denoted by the *). Players will take turns, so you actually only need to report half the time! The reporting player is responsible for taking screenshots and notes and then posting the turns to the forum thread. Of course, the other player is welcome to add thoughts or analysis at will. Take special care in capturing the thought processes and conversations that you have with your teammate during the game - my expectation is that these will be of particular interest of those reading your report.

Alternates - If, at any point, one of the two team members needs to take a skip, instead of skipping the whole team an alternate will step in. Because of this, alternates will almost certainly play, and might end up playing a lot! This should also keep the game moving, as one skip won't actually delay a turn as long as an alternate is ready to step in.

Game Type - Because this is the first time this has been tried, I'm keeping things simple. Continents map, standard size, normal speed, random civs, prince difficulty, teams of 2. Multiplayer options will be simultaneous turns, no turn timer. Teams of two is the obvious starting point because any more and the logistics become increasingly complicated very quickly. I imagine that teams of 3 would be close to the limit for this type of game.

Multiplayer Issues - The game must be saved by the reporting player at the end of each play session and uploaded so the next team can have access. Games can either be played via IP connection or in the gamespy lobby. It would be very nice if teammates had a compatible instant messenger connection to facilitate getting together, although a pre-set time to meet could work too. I would strongly suggest using forum PM's or instant messenger programs to coordinate with your teammate, to keep the clutter in the actual forum thread to a minimum.

[Snaproll]

Starting Positions -

Here are the two starting positions to whet your appetite. Snaproll is playing the German start and Drasca has the Japanese:

German Start


Japanese Start


And how we fit together!

[Snaproll]

The first set of turns went nicely. Drasca met in the Multiplayer lobby after a few IM's and 5 minutes later, after some pre-game discussions, we were on our way. Those of you worried about the logistics of playing a game like this - let me assure you that it really is simple, especially if you use an instant messenger.

You can see the starting positions above. We started out the game with a short discussion of what to research - in a co-op game it is by far the most efficient if you research together. We both have cows in range so we decide to forgo the religious path at first:

I founded Berlin where the settler stands in the post above, and Drasca looked around a little bit longer before founding Kyoto:

After a few (hundred) years of exploring, we begin to speculate that we are alone on this continent

Meanwhile, Drasca stumbles upon some marble! That will be nice for him to trade to me someday... hehe.

Drasca makes good use of some of the lesser-used features of the game. These can actually be very useful in communicating intentions with teammates.

After animal husbandry comes in, it's time for another discussion of what to research. No spiritual civs are included in the game, so we decide to make a run at a religion after all, and start mysticism.

Our instincts were a bit off, as we later stumble across a scout from Mao. Maybe this means the other two civs are isolated? Lets hope so - maybe we'll find them technologically backwards sometime in the future.

[Sirian]

This is a cool idea. I'm glad these guys are blazing the trail. I'm sure we'll be doing more of this type of "Coop-MP-SG" in future.



Good luck!


- Sirian

[Corbeau]

This is probably one of the most innovative SGs yet. I second Sirian's wishes of good luck!

[Snaproll]

More scouting reveals horses near Japanese territory. Drasca will certainly be able to use those, as our warmongering half of the team.

Our religious tech path pays off in spades, and hinduism is founded in Kyoto! This is the fourth tech that we researched. Shows the power of combining research efforts. I don't know if the AI does this in a co-op environment or not.

Now it's time to talk about our next path. Drasca suggests an early Oracle run while I think that mining and bronzeworking will be better. As Drasca mentions, it's not terribly important, but we decide on mining.

And that's where we left it after 30 turns. We both have workers out now and are building settlers, to be placed by the next team. Here's an overview of our land:

And here's the tech tree. Bronze working and Priesthood are both important, as is potter for some early grassland cottages.

Morred and bunny are up next! Good luck guys!

The save!

[thunderbunny]

See it, don't have it yet though. Just got back from a trip and have to go to work tomorrow. More critically, I don't have Morred's IM/contact info yet (might be in the RB forum reply, but that seems to be down). Morred, if you see this, respond to the message please and we'll figure out a time to get started.

[Thormodr]

Very cool idea. I'd be interested in playing in this in some capacity.

[Morred]

PM sent/received. I have a lot of free time, so we should be good, problem is living in Australia, but I'm sure I can handle it to some capacity

[thunderbunny]

Just in case it wasn't clear, Morred and I got it

[Uniqueuponhim]

Think maybe we should go for bronzeworking first so we can chop-rush some stuff, then hit pottery for cottages and save priesthood for last? In my single player games, I have always beelined for a more expensive tech after getting oracle, and timed it so that I would finish the one just before it the same turn oracle finished. We could use this to get more religions (what I usually do) or we could use it to get civil service to enable beaurocracy and, even better, irrigation.

Finally, here's my dotmap suggestion, and hear me out before you call me crazy:

Here's my reasoning:
For Japan, pink and green dots are where you wanted cities already - perfect. Red dot, you might be confused about though. The reason I picked that location is because it has 3 wines and 1 gold in its radius. It overlaps a bit with Kyoto, which is a drag, but that's more than made up for by the fact that it will be getting such a massive amount of commerce. That city will be an ultimate teching city - put oxford university, an academy, and any other science wonders in there and it will be far better than if those resources were split among 2 or 3 cities. Actually getting the wonders built there my pose a bit of a problem due to lack of shields, but there are six forests in its radius which we can either work for production (my vote) or chop them to rush wonders. Japan's blue dot I'm not too sure about. If it were one tile west, it would pick up the incense, but we'd be wasting a bunch of good tiles in between blue dot and red dot that are three spaces from each of them. I think it's best where it is now, and we can place another city to take advantage of the incense later.
For Germany, Pink dot will have access to gold and pigs, plus be on a river, and not overlap with anything or waste any tiles. It's the best spot available for a second city. Blue dot, I've put a tile northeast of the "city 2" flag there, so that it doesn't overlap with pink dot or Berlin, and can still take advantage of those resources. It would be nice to get it on the river. Finally, red dot I'm not really sure about. Depending on what's west of there, and even what's in that area to the south of it, its location could change, though we should really try to keep it on the coast.

Anything I missed? And I haven't even played yet!

[Snaproll]

Originally Posted by Thormodr

Very cool idea. I'd be interested in playing in this in some capacity.

I'll pencil you in as alternate #1 for now. If we get some more interest, I'd still like to add a fourth team to the list. Remember folks, there are still several spots open in the game!

Originally Posted by Corbeau

This is probably one of the most innovative SGs yet. I second Sirian's wishes of good luck!

Thanks! And see my comment, above

Originally Posted by Sirian

This is a cool idea. I'm glad these guys are blazing the trail. I'm sure we'll be doing more of this type of "Coop-MP-SG" in future.

I really appreciate the vote of confidence, Sirian! I was a little worried at first, and no doubt this game will have some growing pains, but the fact that you think it is a cool idea makes me feel better. And see my comment, above

[Snaproll]

Uniqueuponhim, some nice thoughts with that dotmap. I personally didn't spend too much careful analysis time when I placed my "city 2" sign up there, and I actually had a "city 3" sign up right where your pink dot is but couldn't reconcile the overlap. You look like you might have a good solution there. It's a bit hard to dotmap well in the throws of playing your turns, and I'm glad someone took the time to do a careful one.

As for Japan, I'll let Drasca comment on what he thinks of your dots - I didn't take much time looking over his part of the world. Red dot has quite a bit of overlap with the capitol, on quick inspection.

[Thormodr]

Thanks Snaproll. Let me know. If not this game, then one in the future.

[Uniqueuponhim]

Red dot actually doesn't overlap as much as it looks like it does at first glance - only 4 tiles with Kyoto and 1 with pink dot. I know overlapping is a lot worse in civ 4 than it was in civ 3, but I think 5 tiles of overlap is worth such a great commerce city. We might want to think about going for monarchy early to take advantage of those as soon as possible, too.

[Sirian]

Originally Posted by Snaproll

Sirian! ... see my comment, above

I'm afraid that if I don't put more work in to my reports, but just continue to play and play and play, that some people are going to lose patience, drag me behind the shed, and me.



You don't need me, though. You guys are doing swell.


- Sirian

[thunderbunny]

Originally Posted by Uniqueuponhim

T
That city will be an ultimate teching city - put oxford university, an academy, and any other science wonders in there and it will be far better than if those resources were split among 2 or 3 cities. Actually getting the wonders built there my pose a bit of a problem due to lack of shields, but there are six forests in its radius which we can either work for production (my vote) or chop them to rush wonders.

Possibly a stupid question, but would it make sense/be possible for us to found the city w/ japan, then when we need to build wonders trade it to germany to get the wonder production bonus? (never played a MP game before)

Germany's first two spots look good to me. Would've finished our turns last night too except that Morred and I were defeated by technical difficulties. Hopefully they'll go away tonight.

[Drasca]

Originally Posted by Uniqueuponhim

Here's my reasoning: (snip)

Anything I missed? And I haven't even played yet!

Food concerns. Commerce city is a nice idea, looking around, japan's red dot doesn't have a whole lot of food. Zero early food bonuses until irrigation, the Wine bonus with winery on a plains tile is only 2 food, which supports one pop with no net gain on food, which means that desert gold mine won't be worked.

In terms of commerce, the 3a sign is slightly better, as you have faster early growth, access to fresh water for farms, and grassland for cottages (up to 7 commerce, as opposed to winery's 3) with no net food loss. As for the +1 production on that tile, while it is early +1 production, we have a fair shot at pyramids and early universal sufferage if we can go cottageville on the grassland tiles. The gold mine idea would be good, but there's simply not enough food in that area to support using it.

Always consider food surplus and shortages!

For the same reason, your germany blue and pink dots are solid choices. Lots of river/grassland access.

Japanese pink dot, I'm glad you agree with this choice. It is a slave center with fast access to marble. Setting on marble also gives Pink Dot an extra hammer early on, and since there's access to hills and early extra food nearby, the loss of the extra hammer and commerce from mining marble is negligible.

I think Resources City/Green dot can be improved upon. The happiness problem isn't harsh.


Look here. Move Green dot to yellow dot, three tiles to the northwest of suggested City 3a (one northwest, one north of blue dot), still within reach of horses, and with far better (food) tiles than iceball city. We don't need two marble early on, but if we do want that, we can settle on Brown dot, which would actually have enough food to work the marble tile.

Edit: One more reason to consider moving green dot to yellow is if we want a westward land attack campaign. If we want to take down Mao, our cities need to expand westward.

Overlap isn't a huge problem if you consider the food needs, but you do need to consider food! If there isn't enough surplus food within a city radius to work food-absent tiles, your city will not grow to ever use them!

You don't need me, though. You guys are doing swell.

hehe, you aren't the only guy who can captain around here. Yarrrr! Besides, you're at your limit for time. Some of us have to use our own wings. Just wish us luck they don't melt... or we don't crash into a power line... or get eaten by wolves.

There's still much unexplored territory west of Germany's Pink dot. I suggest we discover what's there before planning a city.

Also to consider is revealing copper and iron. Definitely need to expose those before settling city 3 and 4. We'll need to redo our dotmaps once those have been revealed.

[Atlas]

gifting a city to take advantage of the Industrious trait in team play smells like an exploit to me for two reasons: it is not in the spirit of the game and I cannot imagine the AI doing that (it is not even within the realm of possible things the AI could do). Of course I could be overlooking something and this idea merits further discussion.

Atlas

[Drasca]

There are a lot of things the AI won't do which players will. As for gifting, I usually gift settlers rather than whole cities, and the whole 'additional cities' thing is actually balanced by maintenence. Pay money for each additional city.

Besides that, having industrial trait and early access to wonder building resources (stone/marbel) is no guarantee you'll actually build the wonder.