Food Rich Start But With a Catch, A Challenge to Good Monarch or Emperor Players

mutax2003

Rider of China, 4-3-3
Joined
Oct 26, 2005
Messages
618
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Canada
In this game you start as the Egyptians, it is 4000 BC, and the sun shines upon your wondering nomads as you are ready to settle down. Before you are forge your dynastic empire to greatness, you must overcome your initial handicaps, which will become apparent early in your history.



Will it be a desolate island? Will it be raging barbarians? Will it be aggressive neighbors? Only time and exploration will tell. Attached is the original start save, I won't go further in detail, but you can check the spoiler section if you want more clues.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=109690&d=1136053761

Mutax2003

Spoiler :

4000 BC: Found Thebes in place, set city to build worker, warrior go on exploration
3800 BC: Discovered Fishing
3520 BC: Discovered mining
3000 BC: Discovered bronze working, then adopted slavery
2760 BC: Discovered mysticism, then research polytheism, priesthood, and writing for oracle
2000 BC: Found Memphis
1640 BC: Oracle built, discovered code of law and found confucianism
1040 BC: Helipolis founded
975 BC: Discovered Iron working, then researched pottery, masonry, monotheism
650 BC: Adopted caste system and organized religion
600 BC: Elephantine founded
475 BC: Missed pyramids, got 184 gold in refund
 
Well I had a go at this, and think everything's going alright so far, although what I already knew did help me, and I find it hard to forget useful things. Anyway:

Spoiler :

Founded on the starting spot, start researching fishing. Build a warrior, and go exploring. I popped 3 huts, and was lucky, getting 2 scouts and Animal Husbandry free. Knowing that I was on my own I had to concentrate on getting a good economy going quickly, without wars, so I decided to try going for the Great Lighthouse and a generally more peaceful start. So after I finished fishing my research order went (IIRC, I didn't take notes, but I think this is accurate):
Mining, BW, Sailing, Masonry, Pottery, Writing and then researched Mysticism, Meditation and Priesthood to try and get the Oracle. With the food bonuses I could work all the high production tiles in the capital, which got me the Great Lighthouse in 1080BC. After some more deforestation I ended up building the Oracle (also in Thebes) very fast, and finishing it in 800BC. At this point I had a choice, I could either go for CoL to found Confucianism (which I was already 1/3rd done on), or I could get Metal Casting for forges and the Colossus.

I took the much riskier option (that I might not end up with a religion) of Metal Casting, and carried on researching CoL. The gamble paid off and I founded Confucianism in 450BC in Memphis.

I think I'll wait for a while to research optics however, as there are some very early techs I've missed (Haven't got hunting yet, or polytheism).

Edit: I'll just add that I'm planning on turning Thebes into either a GP factory or a production city, which with the 2 seafood tiles shouldn't take too much effort. That should help to keep my science up until I've cottaged all the other cities
http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/5351/egyptturn1008xg.jpg
 
Is this the same one MyOtherName posted? The start looks identical. If so, I'm playing it right now. It's going well, I've reached Astronomy, 4th in score, met all the other civs, and I've reached tech-parity with everyone. I'll do a write-up after I've finished.
 
OK, looks like the same game. I got pretty into this one and didn't make a save until 150 AD (turn 121.) I don't feel like doing a write-up of the whole game all at once, so here's the spoiler up to 150 AD:

Spoiler :


I founded Thebes in place. My initial builds were warrior->warrior->work boat-> worker. After that, I built another warrior, a lighthouse, and the Great Lighthouse. My initial tech path was Mining -> Fishing -> Bronze Working -> Sailing. I did the mining/bronze working first to give my worker something to occupy himself with. I was also pleasantly surprised to find copper near Thebes.

The initial exploration turned up lots of empty land. I explored the entire continent and found I was alone. I also sent a couple of galleys around the continent, but they couldn't find any other land either. After I had explored all the lands, I pulled my warriors, later supplemented by a few axemen, back to the jungles south of Thebes to keep an eye out for barbs popping out of the fog.

I founded Memphis in 1840 BC on the eastern shore to take advantage of the 2 fish tiles. First build there was a work boat, which took forever, but things speeded up after than and Memphis grew quickly. I built a lighthouse, a barracks, and a couple of axes there as well.

Heliopolis was founded on the northern coast in 775 BC, just south of the clams. It built a work boat, then a granary.

Last, and very much least, I built Elphantine on the extreme northeast corner of the island/continent in 25 AD. I had already sailed around the island by that point and realized there were no other islands/continents I could reach. Based on intuition/fog gazing, I guessed there was land east of that spot. Elphantine's culture expanded, proving me correct, on the last turn of this write-up (150 AD.)

Wonders really helped keep me going during this start. I built the Great Lighthouse in Thebes in 1600 BC. Since every city I built was coastal, the GL gave me 3 trade routes in each city, or and extra 8 commerce for 4 cities. It would have been *much* better if there had been another civ for foreign trade routes, but still useful. After that, I was feeling a bit bold, so I went for the Pyramids. Aided by about 5 forest chops (pretty much everything left in Thebes at that time) I finished the Pyramids in 300 BC and immediately switched to Representation. I was also trying to found Confucianism at that time, but I missed by 3 turns :(. In 225 BC, I got my first Great Merchant from the Great Lighthouse. I used him to discover Metal Casting, and built the Colossus in 125 AD. Since every city was working 1-2 coastal squares, the Colossus brought in about 6 extra commerce. Thanks to these 3 wonders, my science slider was running at 70-80% as of 150 AD.

Tech path:


3760 BC: Mining
3560 BC: Fishing
3040 BC: Bronze Working
2640 BC: Sailing
2320 BC: Masonry
2080 BC: Pottery
1760 BC: Animal Husbandry
1600 BC: Mysticism
1320 BC: Writing
1120 BC: Meditation
975 BC: Priesthood
475 BC: Code of Laws
225 BC: Iron Working
200 BC: Metal Casting
Compass (3 turns remaining)

 
I can only look at the screen shot at the moment. While I genearly hate cities near the shore-line, you do have a very decent spot there nevertheless. This game should be a breeze.
 
Well, I played it all the way through:

Spoiler :

From the time of my last spoiler, I researched Compass -> Alphabet -> Polytheism -> Literature. I completed the Great Library to give me a research boost. I also founded Alexandria South of Thebes in 475 AD, near the neck of the peninsula to pick up spices, iron, and rice. I later founded Pi-Ramses (560 AD) and Giza (980 AD) on the west and east coast of the middle area. I next researched Mathematics->Currency->Calendar->Machinery-> Optics. Just before Optics (~1000 AD,) I met Washinton's caravel. When I saw he was lacking philosophy, I used a Great Person to discover the tech for trading purposes.

In the previous spoiler I wrote up, I mentioned that I found land just off the NE corner of the island. My galleys explored it and found an empty island. :( There was a goody hut, which gave me angry barb warriors. There was also marble, copper, and furs on the island, so I later settled 2 cities there (Byblos in 1260 AD and Armana in 1280.)

I discovered Optics in 1100 AD and sent 3 caravels out exploring. It didn't take me long to meet Mali, Rome, England, China, and the Mongols (I had already met the Americans.) I successfully circumnavigated the world in 1290 AD. When I met the other civs, Caesar was 1st in score, Qui (China) 2nd, Washington 3rd, I was 4th, followed by Mansa Musa, Elizabeth, and Mongolia. There seemed to be 2 factions among the AI: Washington, Mansa Musa, and Elizabeth vs. Qui, Caesar, and Khan. Since Washington and Mansa Musa were the most advanced and had the most techs to offer, I traded techs with them and got close to tech parity (2 techs behind Washington, even with everyone else.)

In hindsight, my choice of trading partners might not have been that great. Elizabeth and Mansa were willing to trade techs, at least up until the space race, but Washington got tight and wouldn't trade me a tech until pretty much every other AI had it, if then. It left me in a situation of chasing after him tech-wise for the entire game. The all-too-familiar pattern went as follows: I'd start researching a tech nobody else had. A couple of turns before I finished it, Washington would discover it and trade it to Victoria and Mansa Musa, leaving me holding a tech I didn't need that badly and couldn't trade with anyone (Caesar and Qui refused to trade techs the entire game.) This happened at least 6 times during the course of the game, so I finally gave up and had to do the majority of research myself. :mad:

After Optics, I went for Civil Service (1180 AD) and switched to Bureaucracy. Hanno (Great Merchant) was born in 1200 AD and I used him to discover paper. Rather than trying Education->Liberalism and taking Astronomy as a free tech I chose to research Astronomy directly becuase it was ~ 20 turns faster that way. Washington discovered Liberalism in 1410 and I discovered Astronomy in 1450, so I think he would have beaten me either way. I did manage to trade Astronomy for Education. I picked up Nationalism shortly after and built the Taj Mahal, which set off a Golden Age filled with University building.

At this point, I had to seriously assess my chances of winning. Being isolated, the only reason I had been able to stay close to the AI's in tech was by building a few crucial wonders (Colossus, Great Lighthouse/Library, Pyramids) and neglecting my military. This, coupled with a serious lack of hammers in most of my cities, pretty much ruled out conquest/domination. It was an ideal spot for a cultural victory, unfortunately, I didn't get my first religion until 1490, so that also would have been extremely difficult. I chose to focus on research and see if I couldn't pull out a space/Diplomatic victory.

Along the way, Caesar founded a city on the very souther tip of my continent to claim the sheep there. Unfortunately for him, my culture from nearby cities soon engulfed his city and left him with only sea tiles. I guess he didn't like that, and in 1760 AD, he landed a stack of knights and riflemen in Arpinum and declared war. Luckily, I had been strengthening my military in anticipation of such an attack. I was able to kill off his stack and capture Arpinum in 1780 AD. I built several frigates and sent them west to blocade his 2 seaports. I was also able to bribe Mansa Musa to go to war with Caesar. After I sank 2 frigate and 2 galleons full of cavalry/cannons headed my way, he agreed to peace and paid me 400g for my trouble.

During the war, Caesar fell from 1st to about 4th in score. I moved up to first, Washington to 2nd, Qin to 3rd. It was bad news because it meant that my 'buddy' Washington would be the other candidate for UN secretary general. Since Qin and Caesar hated both of us (Mongolia had been destroyed by this point) they could be counted on to abstain, and Washington would vote for himself, making the chances of a UN victory slim. :mischief:

I pretty much spent the last part of the game chasing Washington's tail. I got close a few times, but I could never seem to quite catch up. He was about 2 steps ahead of me for the entire space race. I tried a bit of a gamble to see if I could catch up. After I researched rocketry, I went for Radio and Fission and managed to trade them to Mansa for plastics. I then researched Computers -> Robotics -> Fiber Optics -> Fusion. My plan was to start building the Space Elevator (Robotics) and the Internet (Fiber Optics), score a great engineer from fusion, use the Gr. Eng to finish the Space Elevator, finish the internet to catch up on techs, and see if I could outrun Washington to the spaceship. Unfortunately, he beat me to fusion by 1, and used *his* GE to finish the Space Elevator. I did manage to finish the internet and it brought me Satellites, Composites, Ecology, Fascism, and Mass Media. At that point, I lacked only genetics, but to my horror I saw in the tech screen Washington had just gotten it. With a 7-turn lead on the final part, I knew the game was lost, but I decided to play it out anyway. Washington launched in 1970. I was 6 turns from finishing my final part.

Final results:

Space Ship loss, 1970 AD. Final score: 5474, In-Game: 3911, Rank: Nero.

Looking at the date, I'm surprised it was such a close race. In my previous experiences, the AI usually wins SS in the early 20th century. I'm sure the game was winnable if I had made different decisions early-on. Siding with the Washington/Mansa/Elizabeth faction meant I had nobody to bribe into a war against Washington to slow his research pace. Also, that alliance was strange. Somehow, he was close enough with them to trade techs, but far enough apart to give me negative modifiers for signing defense pacts with Mansa/Elizabeth. He definitely wasn't a friend of Qin or Caesar though.

A curious note about the Space Elevator: I decided to reload an earlier game and try the ending again. I beat Washington to fusion and scored a great engineer that I used to rush the Space Elevator. He won even faster (1968.) My guess is either that Washington used the money from his project to research faster, or else he was tying up one of his big production cities on the SE and was able to build the last parts faster by freeing it up.

Anyway, thanks for the fun start!

 
Spoiler :
To make a long story short (seriously, the autolog was 25K+ characters...) I took Oracle->CoL to ensure myself a religion and later founded Christianity as well. For solo island maps, hindsight has often shown that researching Optics myself was a bad move - I think that's true here too. I spent nearly 2000 beakers on Machinery and Optics - I could have instead gotten earlier Monarchy, founded Islam, had a lock on Spiral Minaret, and had some excellent trade-bait in Divine Right. Washington's caravel met me a little after 1100AD, just as I discovered Optics - I had 700 points to his 1100. Still, I think the game is still quite winnable with some canny trading.

It's a tough map for a Monarch start - the almost total lack of luxuries is really tough, and the fact that Egypt starts without Mysticism for early religion doesn't help the happiness situation at all. Also, production on most of the island is extraordinarily poor. I'm glad I did a good job warding off barbs with fog-busters, because if I actually let them develop substantial settlements it would have been a real struggle.

By the way, this start is an outstanding example of why you should learn the fine art of whipping.


Having some kind of upload issue with CFC, so the save is here.
 
Hurray, I finally won this game by diplomatic victory. Basically Washington finished the Apollo Project a full 20 turns before me, so the SS victory was out of question for me. I rushed for Kremlin, and basically cash rushed all the important in sight (i.e. bank, university) by periodically set the research to 0. I also gift late game luxuries (i.e. rock and roll & broadway) and trade techs with England, US, and Mansa, and I ignored China and Mongolia. After I cash rushed the UN, then it took me about 7 tries to finally get the victory. One important tech is medicine, allowed me to run environmentalism, and boosted my pop, which gave me the crucial votes to win the election. Here are a couple of save files.
 
Mutax: Good job on the win! From your save, it looks like you had pretty much the same alliances as I did, with the exception that Ghengis Khan got killed off pretty early in my game. Washington actually built the UN in my game and I was able to get elected Secretary General. Even with both Mansa and Elizabeth voting for me, I still lacked the votes for a diplomatic win though. I'm curious what the votes (who voted for who, and how many votes they had) were in your game, and just how close it was.
 
Attached is the save two turns from the win (note: I agreed with Washington for a mutual war against the mongols). Basically, Washington, Mansa, and England voted for me each time. China voted for Mongol, and Rome abstained each time. I am surprised Washington and Mansa would vote for me, since each of them were further along in their space programs compared to me.
 
mutax2003 said:
Attached is the save two turns from the win (note: I agreed with Washington for a mutual war against the mongols). Basically, Washington, Mansa, and England voted for me each time. China voted for Mongol, and Rome abstains each time. I am surprised Washington and Mansa would vote for me, since each of them were further along in their space programs compared to me.

Ahh, that explains it. Washington was my opponent in my UN elections, so he voted for himself each time. Washington, Elizabeth, and Mansa ganged up on Ghenghis and took all of his lands. Washington got the lion's share of the captured cities, so he ended up #2 in population.
 
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