Obelisks obsolete with Calender?

[aaronflavor]

"Obelisks obsolete with Calender" - What exactly does this mean? I read somewhere that obelisks will continue to produce culture forever, and even will double culture after 1000 years. If this is so, what is the effect of obsolescence?

[Jazz_Newton]

The effect is that you can't build any more of them...

[ZippyRiver]

Which if you get calander early, can be a big hinderance to expansion plans. In as much I think the game balance for the loss is to make calander attractive even given the set-back. And having all those happiness resources activated by it does the job nicely. Even at that, I usually don't go for calander until I really need those bonuses.

Centering the world map, the other white meat, I could care less about. In it's self, It does not improve my terrain, allow new units, or prodive beneficial buildings. All it does is let me know at what exact spot I hit the windshield. I rarely need it for contacts, I have already met all my early game contacts.

[KingCruz]

Theres really no need to build obelisks later anyway. Theaters kind of replace the culture-pumper for cities.
Kind of like monestaries are obsolete at scientific method. I used to think "does that mean i can't build another more missionaries?", it just means I can't build any more of them...

[aaronflavor]

Centering the map isn't so useful on continents and similar, where its fairly easy to approximate your latitude based on the terrian. On other maps, perhaps centering might help focus your expansion direction--or the direction to send great merchants.

[milhouse88]

Originally Posted by Jazz_Newton

The effect is that you can't build any more of them...

Does that apply to all the other instances of 'obsolete' as well? You still get use, but you can't build them any more?

[_alphaBeta_]

Originally Posted by milhouse88

Does that apply to all the other instances of 'obsolete' as well? You still get use, but you can't build them any more?

1. You cannot build the structure anymore.

2. Existing structures lose all of their bonuses EXCEPT their culture benefit. This includes great person points.

[al_thor]

I've had games where the Obelisks are TOTALLY removed when I learn Calendar. These are all Standard Map/Normal Speed games. When playing Epic Speed, the obelisks stayed and continued to generate culture. Bug?

If I don't have any resource that requires a Plantation, I don't even bother learning or trading for Calendar when I have Stonehenge. If you capture an AI city with Plantations, you still get the resource. That's cool.

[eric_]

When you build Stonehenge, is there a universal culture bonus that benefits each city to the degree that having an obelisk in each one would?

Or does Stonehenge give you all the bonuses of the Obelisk in each city except for the culture bonus?

I never thought about this. Hopefully the case is the former, otherwise you'd kinda want to build obelisks everywhere even if you build Stonehenge.

[Hans Lemurson]

When Stonehenge goes obsolete, you lose all the obelisks it created in your cities right? Which means you lose that spiffy culture-generation and you can't even build any real obelisks to counteract this, since you "already have" one in the city.

Oh well, I guess you just need to make sure all of your early cities are already built and border-expanded by the time you get Calendar.

[eric_]

>When Stonehenge goes obsolete, you lose all the obelisks it created in your cities right? Which means you lose that spiffy culture-generation and you can't even build any real obelisks to counteract this, since you "already have" one in the city.

That's kind of an extension of my question...

Hopefully the culture bonus of obelisks is granted to ALL cities by Stonehenge, and hopefully they all retain that bonus when Stonehenge goes obsolete.

Also, does Stonehenge's obelisk bonus affect cities you build after the Stonehenge is completed?

[al_thor]

Stonehenge gives you a free obelisk in all cities. First, you get one in all existing cites (probably not that many), then you get one if every new city that you create via settler. If you take a city (AI or Barabarian), you get an obelisk in it.

I play the Japenese, and having no bonus towards culture buildings, Stonehenge is a great way to establish yourself in the early game. It allows for a little more leeway when deciding new city locations, as you know that the obelisk will give you a quicker border expansion. Now you can still settle on that nice river and the borders will expand to get that cow in short order.

[eric_]

Thanks al_thor...do you retain culture bonuses in all cities after you research calendar?

[al_thor]

Originally Posted by Hans Lemurson

When Stonehenge goes obsolete, you lose all the obelisks it created in your cities right? Which means you lose that spiffy culture-generation and you can't even build any real obelisks to counteract this, since you "already have" one in the city.

Oh well, I guess you just need to make sure all of your early cities are already built and border-expanded by the time you get Calendar.

I don't think this is exactly correct. I think that, once you learn Calendar, you can't build obelisks, regardless of whether you have Stonehenge or not.

Just like when you learn Sci Method, you can no longer build Monestaries. (Thankfully, you don't LOSE those like you do obelisks, and you can still build missionaries if you want).

[al_thor]

Originally Posted by eric_

Thanks al_thor...do you retain culture bonuses in all cities after you research calendar?

Well, you don't lose any culture that you accumulated, if that's what you mean. But you no longer get any new culture, if an obelisk is all you had (aside from maybe the culture you get from religion I mean).

[al_thor]

I'm currently in a game (Monarch, in-land sea, Japan) and Egypt (Creative) is my neighbor. She loves to settle aggressively - right in your face - and that 2-culture-per-turn that she gets in the early game can be stifling to say the least.
I have Stonehenge, and thankfully, even though I have like 8 cities, I have no need for Plantations, so I don't know Calendar and will not take it in trade.
Still, I have to chop a Lib or Temple or Monastary just to keep from being choked out by her.
I did take one of her cities in an early war, but she has bounced back from that with a vengeance. As we speak, I am amassing Samuari/Cats/Pikes on her borders. I don't think her little Culture Game is going to save her from a horde of angry Samauri built with Vassalage and Theocracy enabled :grin:

[al_thor]

Also, one of my cities that borders her has Heroic Epic AND a Forge. That thing cranks out a Samauri every 1.5 turns. All other units in 1 turn. Yikes!

[Hans Lemurson]

Originally Posted by al_thor

I don't think this is exactly correct. I think that, once you learn Calendar, you can't build obelisks, regardless of whether you have Stonehenge or not.

Just like when you learn Sci Method, you can no longer build Monestaries. (Thankfully, you don't LOSE those like you do obelisks, and you can still build missionaries if you want).

Stonehenge goes obsolete with Calendar, just as do obelisks, so it's effect of "provides an obelisk for free in every city" disappears then too.

If obelisks persist after Calendar, then you are in a bad spot if you built Stonehenge, since you only ever had phantom-obelisks in your cities. Not only that, but you were prevented from building concrete ones, since an obelisk "already existed" in the city. So then when you get Calendar, all your cities suddenly lose their early main culture-generator.

On the other hand, if concrete-obelisks disappear too with the discovery of Calendar, then Stonehenge suffers you no comparable loss, and has a true advantage for its construction rather than being a mixed blessing (like the Temple of Athena was in C3C).

[ranger999]

I just checked a savegame--I definitely have obelisks continuing to pump out culture AFTER Calendar. So now the big question, does Calendar cause Stonehenge's "phantom Obelisks" to disappear from all towns? The standard Wonder rules would appear to imply that they do, and only "real" obelisks built before Stonehenge would remain & continue to give culture.

[Hans Lemurson]

In a system of persistent obelisks, that Stonehenge becomes sort of like crack, where you win now, but pay later (for rest the of the game). 2♫ per turn (I am assuming it has been 1000 years) is a lot over a large period of time, especially in smaller, undeveloped cities who often cannot afford to construct some of the later culture improvements. The Temple of Athena in C3C was annoying for this very fact.

It raises a dilemma though, either you have a Wonder of the World that has a down-side, you harshly make Calendar destroy all obelisks, or you unrealisticly buff Stonehenge by making it never obsolete.

(pressing alt+14 on the numpad yields the ♫)