Forest chops: What's our common ground?

There is hardly any topic more controversial in the Civ 4 game than the strategies and methodes regarding chop-rushing. I'm expecting a crazy hot discussion on this sooner or later, so we may as well start early.

For the protocol, opening this thread doesn't mean in way that I, as the Minister of Science, am adopting Mining and Bronze Working as our next research objectives. The ongoing discussion of what to research next (here) should not be influenced by the mere fact that we are starting to talk about chopping forests - although it certainly may be influenced by the common ground we'll hopefully find in this talk.

Back to the matter at hand. We all know the chop-rushing topic is very comprehensive, including things like:

- What kind of Forests are free for chopping?
- When shall Forests be chopped?
- What for may Forests be chopped?
- To what degree can a city allow it's surrounding Forests to be chopped?
- What to do with tiles that had their Forests chopped?
- etc.

Here are two very good reads to the chop-rushing topic:
- A Comprehensive Guide to Terrain, Improvements, Resources, and City Placement, section "Chopping Forrests"
- Worker Chop - the (preliminary) Guide

Now, for starters, just tell us whatever you think. As I've said, this discussion is gonna be quite chaotic anyway.

To the extent necessary, chop flat grassland first, then the more productive forest plots. River forests are also a priority, to allow the plot its commerce bonus. Hill forests should be left alone if possible, as should forested plains.

There are hardly any general rules for chopping, it is a rather complicated subject indeed. What is not reasonable to chop are the forests within the starting 8 tiles of the city radius because they actually increase health in that city and health is a good thing because without health cities cannot grow. So, it might be other forests can be chopped. Of course, if there are too many forests in the strating 8 tiles, these excessive forests (more than 2 or 4) can be chopped as well. Usually keeping more than 4 forests is not required unless there is very strong unhealthiness in the surrounding area (many flood plains). Jungle is not a reason because jungle can be removed and negative health impact of jungle would be thus abolished.

Regarding directions as to where these chopped hammers should go, there is no universal answer to that, it all depends on the requirements at a certain time moment. Also, improvements which should or should not be built in the stead of the chopped forest would be determined mostly specifically by the nearby city and overall demands on the economy and military.

Chillaxation said:

To the extent necessary, chop flat grassland first, then the more productive forest plots. River forests are also a priority, to allow the plot its commerce bonus. Hill forests should be left alone if possible, as should forested plains.

Click to expand...

"To the extent necessary" is actually what we need to talk about. The rest is more technical, but what's "necessary" is where the most disagreement lies.

Blkbird said:

"To the extent necessary" is actually what we need to talk about. The rest is more technical, but what's "necessary" is where the most disagreement lies.

Click to expand...

Could you help me out with an example?

Personally, -I- think it's needful and most useful to chop only when I've planned on using the space for an improvement that the city has the population to work, and when the hammers will solve an immediate problem or assist a long term goal. I don't chop when I have to wait while producing a unit or building for the event necessary to build another (such as a population increase or a tech advance), or when I don't need the land. Is this what you're getting at?

I am talking about chop-*rushing*, it's not chopping to make space for improvements, it's chop to get hammers to speed up a building or unit.

Improvemental chops should be talked about, too, but they're much less controversial.

I prefer to chop rush settlers and workers the most, because they stop our city's population growth, and are arguably the most important units at the beginning of the game. I chop rush wonders if I have a feeling I'm in a race for it, and that way we can get its benefits earlier and move on to produce other things. If there's something else that we *really* need or want, I suppose we could chop a forest for it, but I'd prefer to save them for the workers and settlers.

As for which tiles to chop, ones adjacent to rivers are always the first to go because chopping there will give the tile +1 commerce in place of the lost production. Next to go are forests on hills, because we can replace them with mines, and 4 production is better than 3 production anyday. We have plenty of forest surrounding our capital so we can afford to chop most of them, and get the highest production bonus. I think that to get any more specific on which tiles to actually chop, we should take it on a case-by-case basis.

Here are my candidates to get chopped:
1. Two tiles E of Boaring Wallow
2. One tile NW of Boaring Wallow
3. N-NE of Boaring Wallow

The forest from 1 can be replaced with a cottage to increase income. The forests from 2 and 3 should be chopped simply to gain hammers, and no improvements, including roads, should go in their place. #2 will have 3 forests around it, and #3 will have 4 forests around it. Those forests will eventually grow back if left alone, and hopefully that will happen in time for us to harvest on another Settler, Worker, or Wonder. Forests are renewable, as long as you don't improve the space they were on or the forests around them.

I feel that we should keep at least a few forests in our city borders for production purpouses.

Our common ground is a soil mixture, though it can become muddy after rain and river flooding, and our warrior tells of "rocky" ground on the hills, and "sandy Ground" on the Desert!

Pertaining to the forest i would have to say that the ground would be a mixture of soil and decompsing stuff! Forest Chopping woulld add some woodchips too!