Eastern Europe in the Dark Ages

Bungus

Archont of Cootertown
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A quick search on the internet will reveal a myriad of facts about eastern europes political history during the period of late antiquity and the early middle ages. But so far I've been unable to find anything about the life and culture of the region.
Specifically, I'm interested in the Slavic states and the Balkans, minus the Byzantines. More specifically the first centralized Slavic kingdom, Great Moravia. What kind of society was it (most slavs up until this point were living in agricultural tribes or clans)? What kind of architecture did they use? How did they dress? What written language did they use before the adoption of Cyrillic? What was the religous situation, mostly pagan, mostly christian? How did they wage warfare?
So if anyone knows a good site, book, or other references, or can provide any information themselves, I'd be most obliged if you'd let me know.
 
Have a look at Pope Nicholas I's letter to the Bulgarians, AD 866. It's a response to a letter from the Bulgarians, asking a pile of questions about their new faith (they had recently converted to Christianity, although they were wavering between the western and the eastern versions, largely because of uncertainty over whether they were going to ally with the Holy Roman Empire or with Byzantium). The letter is very interesting in what it reveals about the Bulgarians' concerns, which themselves are very revealing about Bulgarian society at the time. They ask, for example, if it's OK to continue wearing trousers after conversion! (It turns out they can.)

The Pope's answers are pretty interesting in themselves too, revealing a fair-minded concern to balance fidelity to Christian traditions with a recognition that a different culture's own traditions should be preserved where possible. Several times, the Pope tells them to follow their own traditions and laws, but where they conflict with the Gospel, there can be no compromise. He is also clear on the distinction between things they must do and things he would like them to do. All in all, a pretty fair-minded and decent letter.

The link is - http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/866nicholas-bulgar.html
 
Jeez, the pope can't give them a straight answer. They ask whether they can work on Saturday, and Rome sends them a novel..

That's a cool article, Plotinus. The Pope was pretty forward-thinking given it was writen at a time when it was acceptable to boil and eat someone if they used a word that wasn't found in the bible.
The Bulgars weren't slavic though, although they did mingle alot with the Europeans, they were of Turkic origin (as I'm sure you know). I think they were still very different from Moravians. Information on them seems more readily availabe, and I'd like to find out just how different the two countries were at the mid-9th century.

But my primary interest still lies northwest of Bulgaria

@Our Thing: Are you suggesting the Kievan Rus shared the same culture as the Moravians of the 800's? They are considerably easier to find information about.
 
They grew in power during the 10th or 11th century. I wouldn't assume they were identical in culture to the Moravians, though perhaps similiar. Probably less advanced than the Moravians in the 800's, due to their distances from the mediterranean and the Franks

Btw this site is really sucking balls lately. This is the second time I've had to rewrite this because my account keeps timing out after 5 minutes unless its set to remember password info.
 
Now firstly, all slavic/balkan states do not use Cyrillic alphabets. I find it difficult to understand why that is so hard to grasp for a lot of people. Is it an urge to simplify things for one self under one cathegory, because of the dominance of eastern Europe by Russia? I mean the previous pope was Polish, it therefor does not seem far fetched to believe that Poland is a catholic nation and never orthodox (catcholicism being the main engine behind the spread of the Roman alphabet). Now great Moravia was situated right in the way between modern day Poland and the Vatican wich sort of leads you to thing that that area also became catholic and before Poland at that. There is a ciryllic/roman border between Lithuania, Poland/Beluruss, Ukrain aproximately.

Steam vented.

For a more objective view of European history read: Europe a history by Norman Davies. He is not as western oriented as most other “western” historians are. Reading western history books you often get inclined to believe that there was a large vacuum beyond the eastern borders of Germany untill Russia became a world power. He has also written a history of Poland “God’s Playground” wich is deffinetly pallatable.

I guess I’ll never vent this steam totaly... :crazyeye:
 
Traditionally the 'Dark Ages' in European history refers to the period between the collapse of the western Roman Empire (c. A.D. 476) and the re-establishment of a viable state system in Europe (c. A.D. 800) under Charlemagne. In this period, there really were no Eastern European states, at least not in the medieval sense of a state. The closest one could come would be the Avar khanate which occupied what is modern Hungary, Moravia, Slovakia and northwestern Romania, which lasted from the 6th century until Charlemagne destroyed it in the early 9th.

There is the curious and over-celebrated "Samo empire", a short-lived statelet founded by a Frankish merchant named "Samo" (although, curiously enough, "samo" in Slavic languages means "self", as in "self-rule"). Samo apparently led a revolt among Slavs against the Avars (whom the Slavs had followed into Europe in the 6th century) in the early 7th century and founded a little kingdom centered on modern Moravia and Slovakia. This kingdom did not survive his death, and its extent is hotly debated today; some claim it was a small local affair, while others claim it stretched from the Adriatic to the Carpathians. Archaeology has helped some, but not a lot.

Some reference help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samo here.

The Bulgars crossed into the Balkans in the 7th century but they were at that point a mixed group of Turkic Steppe tribes, and while they seized control of much of modern norther Bulgaria from the Byzantines, they didn't really establish a state so much as a local tribal confederation that, over the next two centuries, evolved into a state under Byzantine pressure and as the Bulgars' Steppe lifestyles fused slowly with agrarian Slavs they ruled over.

If one is to include the Steppe empires and extend the border definition of 'Eastern Europe' to the Urals, well then we have a whole new host of "states" to look at in the form of the Khazar khanate, Cumania, the Pechenegs, etc. etc. etc. but these were not states in any sense we would recognize with solidly-defined borders and established administrative classes.

The first real states of Eastern Europe appear around the time of and influenced by the Charlemagne Franks, beginning most likely with Mojmir's establishment of the Bohemian state just a couple decades after Charlemagne's death, and the competition that erupts immediately between Rome and Constantinople for influence in the new eastern states.
 
Vrylakas said:
Traditionally the 'Dark Ages' in European history refers to the period between the collapse of the western Roman Empire (c. A.D. 476) and the re-establishment of a viable state system in Europe (c. A.D. 800) under Charlemagne. In this period, there really were no Eastern European states, at least not in the medieval sense of a state. The closest one could come would be the Avar khanate which occupied what is modern Hungary, Moravia, Slovakia and northwestern Romania, which lasted from the 6th century until Charlemagne destroyed it in the early 9th.

There is the curious and over-celebrated "Samo empire", a short-lived statelet founded by a Frankish merchant named "Samo" (although, curiously enough, "samo" in Slavic languages means "self", as in "self-rule"). Samo apparently led a revolt among Slavs against the Avars (whom the Slavs had followed into Europe in the 6th century) in the early 7th century and founded a little kingdom centered on modern Moravia and Slovakia. This kingdom did not survive his death, and its extent is hotly debated today; some claim it was a small local affair, while others claim it stretched from the Adriatic to the Carpathians. Archaeology has helped some, but not a lot.

Some reference help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samo here.

The Bulgars crossed into the Balkans in the 7th century but they were at that point a mixed group of Turkic Steppe tribes, and while they seized control of much of modern norther Bulgaria from the Byzantines, they didn't really establish a state so much as a local tribal confederation that, over the next two centuries, evolved into a state under Byzantine pressure and as the Bulgars' Steppe lifestyles fused slowly with agrarian Slavs they ruled over.

If one is to include the Steppe empires and extend the border definition of 'Eastern Europe' to the Urals, well then we have a whole new host of "states" to look at in the form of the Khazar khanate, Cumania, the Pechenegs, etc. etc. etc. but these were not states in any sense we would recognize with solidly-defined borders and established administrative classes.

The first real states of Eastern Europe appear around the time of and influenced by the Charlemagne Franks, beginning most likely with Mojmir's establishment of the Bohemian state just a couple decades after Charlemagne's death, and the competition that erupts immediately between Rome and Constantinople for influence in the new eastern states.

Totally disagree.
First Bulgarians( Bulgars as you call them) are not " mixed group of Turkic Steppe tribes". The Bulgarians had a strong state much before they came to the Balcans. It was called Volga Bulgaria ot Great Bulgaria.
They establieshed a real and strong state on the Balkans. With laws and administration.
And it's completely fake to state that the Bulgarians rulled over the slavs.
 
If you had read my first paragraph closely, you would have seen the following statement:

In this period, there really were no Eastern European states, at least not in the medieval sense of a state.

I've added the itallics now for emphasis. In Bungus' original post, he makes clear he is looking for something along the lines of a European medieval kingdom, and he gives the examples of the 9th century Moravia Magna/"Greater Moravia". My point was that, in eastern Europe (excluding Byzantium of course), Greater Moravia was the first such state. He mentions the 'Dark Ages' but often that term is applied to wide time periods; some consider almost everything before the Renaissance to be the 'Dark Ages', which is why I defined the more traditional approach.

I separated the Steppe states (like the Avar and the Bulgar khanates) because they were qualitatively quite different from settled, established medieval European states. It's not a matter of one being more 'developed' or 'advanced' than the other; rather it's a matter of adapting to different circumstances. The Steppe region was a very fluid region historically with waves of semi-nomadic peoples convulsing westward from as far east as modern Manchuria and often spilling into eastern Europe via either the northern Polish-German plain, the Carpathian passes into Hungary and the northern Danube Basin, or southwards into the Balkans and the Danube delta. All along the Steppe route - Lake Balkhash, the Aral Sea, skirting the northern borders of settled ancient Central Asian civilizations, the Caspian Sea and the southern Urals, the Caucasus and the rolling southern Russian and Ukrainian plains, the Black Sea and finally eastern Europe - various clan-based empires sprung up built by peoples with strong equestrian traditions, with ephemeral borders (with few natural borders) and whose economies depended on tributes from conquered peoples and merchants, and raiding neighboring empires. They had no written laws but instead relied on tribal or clan customs and traditions. They also had no administration in the sense of coin minters, tax collectors, ambassadors, etc. What little trade that took place did so out of the state's hands, and involved almost completely barter - no coins or currencies. These empires could be quite powerful and effective military machines, capable of far greater military mobility and far wider-ranging projected power than more settled states but their weakness was their composition: usually comprising multiple clans and tribes bound together by success and necessity. In this way the successful Khazar empire came unraveled when several of its component groups - including the Magyars and the Bulgars - bolted the empire.

Medieval European states - remembering that Europe is a peninsula, with therefore fewer potential routes for external invasion - were based on settled agrarian economies that required forging social (= political) bonds above and beyond the clan, and whose economies were based on production and trade, and taxation of both. They tended to have far fewer military resources than the Steppe states (because they were bound to far stricter border deliniations and because the peoples in their realms played multiple - economic as well as military - rolls). To be sure the earliest medieval states in Europe - even western Europe - still had many of the Steppe state traits, which shouldn't be surprising since the Germanic peoples were also a product of the Steppe culture, with the Ostrogothic kingdom almost indistinguishable from the Hunnic in organization, but a crucial deciding factor that forced the medieval European states down a different developmental path was the city. Urban development completely transformed and reorganized medieval European social, economic and power structures. While Steppe states often occupied established cities and certainly had them within their territories, cities played only a minimal role in these empires and the true power structures - the clans - lay outside them. The Bulgars, for instance, occupied many old Roman or Byzantine towns (or Slavic agricultural centers, "oppida") and the camp they founded - Pliska - only later evolved into a full-fledged city, as befitted a medieval European state.

On that note, John V.A. Fine Jr., citing archaeological evidence, describes Pliska in around A.D. 700 as:

…a huge walled camp, lying on a plain, encompassing some twenty-three square kilometers. Inside were the Khan's palace, the yurts of his fellow tribesmen, warehouses, shops, and space for flocks and horses.
(Fine, 1991: pg. 68)

That Pliska was founded on a plain is indicative of the Steppe tradition - medieval cities were typically founded on naturally defensible topographies like swamps, hills, river bends, etc.

First Bulgarians( Bulgars as you call them)

I use that term, "Bulgars", to refer to the pre-Slavicized Bulgarians. The early Bulgars were no more Bulgarian than early Franks were French.

...are not " mixed group of Turkic Steppe tribes"

Are not, indeed, but were at one point. Scholars from all over the world have concurred that the language the early Bulgars spoke was a Turkic language. I know that today there is a local nationalist revolt in Bulgaria against any historic association with the Turkic peoples and their modern descendants, the Turkish, but no credible linguist has been able to refute modern Bulgarians' clear Turkic origins, not just in surviving lexical evidence but in grammatical imprints as well. Add to that surviving Byzantine accounts of early Bulgar and the much-studied impact early Bulgar had on surrounding language groups, and it is clear the early Bulgars spoke a Turkic language.

Here is a pathetic and sad exhibit of this modern nationalist fantasy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bulgars

As for the "mixed group of...tribes" part, yes I am fully aware of the successful Bulgar khanates on the Don River ("Great Bulgaria") and later the Volga - indeed, one of my favorite Hungarian paleo-linguists, István Fodor, has a fairly extensive section on the cultural impact these Bulgar states had on the early Magyars, including important technological loan words - but another trait of the Steppe empires was that they attracted many smaller or weaker groups, who trailed and clung to them. The Khanate of Great Bulgaria on the Don River was composed of not just "Bulgars" but a collection of Utigur and Kutrigur Hunnic tribes, Iranian-speaking Alans, Avars and other smaller Turkic-speaking groups. When this khanate was destroyed by the rising Khazar khanate, do you think only the Bulgars were dispersed, moving towards the Volga and the Balkans? Of course not; the Bulgars under Asparuch included many other non-Bulgar groups as well. You cannot equate these early Bulgar khanates with modern ethnic-based Bulgaria.

Again, these Bulgar states ("Greater Bulgaria") were Steppe khanates, powerful Steppe empires but not medieval sedentary/agricultural states. Again, it's not a value comparison of which was "better", it's a description of two very different kinds of states.

When the Magyars entered the Carpathian Basin in the late 9th century, they brought with them their recognized clans but as well several groups historians, archaeologists and linguists have puzzled over since. Similarly, when the Bulgars crossed into eastern Europe - and they did not just head southwards into the Balkans; they also established themselves along the Danube in what is today Hungary - they also brought with them a myriad collection of peoples whose identities we will likely never know. That also means we'll never know what cultural or economic impact they may have had. Ethnicity was not a decisive factor for pre-modern peoples. The Avars, when they entered the Carpathian Basin in the 6th century brought with them, among other peoples, the Slavs.

They establieshed a real and strong state on the Balkans. With laws and administration. And it's completely fake to state that the Bulgarians rulled over the slavs.

I think you're confusing the later Bulgarian states of the 9th century - Khan Krum and the First Bulgarian Empire, etc. - with the period I am talking about, the late 7th and 8th century Bulgars. When the Bulgars first wrested territory away from the Byzantines and settled down under Asparuch/Isparich, they established a typical social and political order familiar to what they'd known on the Steppes. But this time they were immediately confronted by two different realities - the first was the Slavic peoples who had already been living in the region for nearly a century before the Bulgars arrived, who had adopted under Byzantine tutelage a very organized and agrarian existance. Some historians suspect the Slavs welcomed the Bulgars because the Bulgars ended Byzantine taxation practices. The second was the Byzantine empire itself, which while unable to stop the Bulgars from settling in the Balkans, did manage from the beginning to exert influence on the Bulgars and encourage the establishment of Byzantine-style institutions and practices. From the period of their establishment in the Balkans, c A.D. 698, until Khan Krum in A.D. 802 began to unite all the Danube Bulgars into the powerful "first" empire, a mere century, is a formative period in which the ruling Bulgar elite gradually blended with the surrounding Slavic society and also developed, often not in mimmickry but to counter, Byzantine-style state institutions. It is not a mistake that Khan Boris in the mid-9th century would call himself "tsar" (a Slavic derivation of "caesar"). By the time of Khan Krum, old Bulgar and the Slavs were united and indistinguishable - but that was not the case a century earlier.

If you want a comparison, when the Magyars first entered eastern Europe and set up shop in the Carpathian Basin in A.D. 895-896, they also created a Steppe state and did what was natural for Steppe khanates - they raided neighboring regions for income and collected tribute from the peoples who lived in the area they directly controlled - mostly Slavs and Avars left over from the collapsed Avar khanate. When the Magyars' main forces were devastatingly defeated at Lechfeld/Augsburg in A.D. 955 by Otto I, the man who would found the "Ottonian" empire (for Otto I, II & III) that would eventually become the Holy Roman Empire, the Magyars very wisely decided to adapt to their neighbors and set out under Géza and his son Vajk/István (Stephen) to transform their Steppe state into an established Christian/European-style medieval kingdom. There is a huge qualitative difference the Magyars under A'rpád in the late 9th century and the Hungarian kingdom founded by Géza and István in the late 10th/early 11th centuries. A similar difference can be found when comparing the Asparuch Bulgar state to Khan Krum's Bulgarian empire.

SO - to get back to Bungus' original question - my ultimate answer is that the Dark Ages were not a period of states in eastern Europe, despite the existence of the Avar and Bulgar khanates - both of which I mentioned, although I would now add that the Avars were the more powerful of the two at the time. In the 9th century, almost immediately from the beginning we see a flowering of states in eastern Europe - the Bulgar khanate evolves into the First Bulgarian empire, Mojmir founds the Moravian (and later Bohemian) states, Croatia is founded, and in the 10th century we see an even bigger explosion - Hungary, Poland, Serbia, etc. etc. etc. But that's why I drew the period line at the 9th century, coinciding with Charlemagne in western Europe.

To throw a few references out there to show you where I am getting this all from, I'll list the following:

Barford, P.M. - The Early Slavs, Cornell University Press, Ithaca (NY) 2001: Describes the Bulgar invasion of the 7th century from the Slavic and Byzantine viewpoints, and also describes in some detail the Slavicization of the Bulgar elites.

Fine, Jr.; John V.A. - The Early Medieval Balkans, a Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century, University of Michigan Press, Ann Arbor (MI), 1991: Excellent description of the early Bulgars as they entered the Balkans.

Fodor, István - In Search of a New Homeland, the Prehistory of the Hungarian People and the Conquest, Corvina Books, Budapest 1975: Great descriptions of Bulgar linguistic impact on early Magyar.

Magocsi, Paul Robert - Historical Atlas of East Central Europe, Vol. I of A History of East Central Europe, University of Washington Press, Seattle, 1993: Good overview of the Bulgar invasion of the Balkans and early state formation.

Pálóczi Horváth, A'ndrás - Pechenegs, Cumans, Iasians, Steppe Peoples in Medieval Hungary, Corvina Books, Budapest, 1989: Good for a comparison of a former Steppe people (Hungarians) and contemporary Steppe peoples (Cumanians, Pechenegs, Iasians).

Sedlar, Jean W. - East Central Europe in the Middle Ages, 1000-1500, Vol. III of A History of East Central Europe, University of Washington Press, Seattle, 1994: Parallels the development story in the Barford book.
 
Thanks for the very indepth analysis, your Verboseness, and for every else's comments, except Pokurcz's. I have no idea what you're talking about, but I was talking about Moravia's adoption of the cyrillic alphebet in the 860's. Whatever..

To clarify, I'm most interested in the 9th century (the term early medieval makes sense, regardless of what the Franks were doing, as that was the start of state building in Europe). I think thats the cause of the confusion among Vrylakas, fing0lfin, and I. Me and fing were talking 9th century, Vrylakas was thinking earlier. But as 7 and 8 invariably lead to 9, your discussion helps me understand where things were coming from.
Now I don't suppose you guys would know anything more about the culture and life in either Bulgaria of Moravia in the 9th?
 
Sorry Bungus, my bad.

The thing is that I am born in Poland but have lived in Sweden most of my life. Now the thing with most swedes is that they have a highly developed sense of superiority towards all things not swedish. Based mostly on the many inventions they have made (like dynamite and the "skiftnyckel"), the highly renowned companies they have spawned (like Eriksson, Volvo and SAAB) and by some more enthusiastic individuals the era of their history between the "thirty year war" and the beginning of the eightteenth century (when they aspired to become one of Europes great powers).
In a typicaly germanic way they seem to think less of slavs.

Kids are rutheless. In shool I was there for left with two options either admit that Poland was a lesser country or refuse to. In stead for social self persevation i opted for the latter. This hase left me scarred and overtly sensitive on the issue.

Now I'm not claiming that most sweeds ar racists, that is not the case. Most of them are very nice people, but that often means that their feeling "superiority" is hidden just beneath a surface of common sence.

To the point. A lot of people I have met have believed that they use Ciryllics in Poland and that sort of pisses me off. Thats why I overreacted on your initial Post and specificaly: "What written language did they use before the adoption of Cyrillic?"

Apparently it was Glagolitic.


Did I mention that I am emotionaly unstable recently? At least I tried to hint it previously with a :crazyeye:

Have a nice day! :)
 
No problem. But you have to hand it to those Swedes, they are.. tall..

Glagolitic appears, upon further research, to be another name for the alphabet devised by the missionaries Cyril and Methodius in the mid-800's. I'm begining to doubt theres any record of the Slavic spoken languange prior to that time. It wasn't a written language, and it changed so much over the centuries (like any language, but some have records).
I think its safe to assume they wrote in latin up until the 860's.
 
I'd rather say it's a generation thing. I'm 1,92m Everyone of my generation in my family is over 1,80, even got an aunt whos 1,84. Come to think of it we had a lot of guys about 1,90 in my class in highschool, but thats maybe because a lot of them played handball. I've heard that the Dutch are realy tall.

One thing's for sure about Swedes, they have long faces.


Check "Glagolitic" on Wikipedia, article sounds reasonable.
 
Now I don't suppose you guys would know anything more about the culture and life in either Bulgaria of Moravia in the 9th?

:hmm: Very limited information about daily life in this period, though I could dig some. A brief historical overview of the Moravian empire/Greater Moravia follows, but I'll read up over the next few days to see if much is available. Between the job, wife and life I only have limited time so please be patient as I find time to write. ;)

Moravia's life as a state was short but crucial to all the Western Slavs as a model for statehood and relations with the Germans. It isn't exaggerating much to say that "Greater Moravia" was a sort of mother state to the modern Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland, in the same way ancient Rus laid the foundations for the Eastern Slavic peoples and still influences modern Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.

All the eastern European states of this period had the same problem of how to develop their own institutions independently, and in doing so connect culturally and economically to the more developed civilizations nearby - without being absorbed into them. Some, like Polabia or Volhynia did not succeed and succumbed to foreign rule, losing their own distinct institutions and identities forever. Some did succeed though - though again, none succeeded without a struggle.

In the late 8th century, the phenomenon of hillforts began to arise across what is today eastern Czech Republic and western Slovakia, the region known as Moravia after the "Marharii" tribe, and these hillforts signaled the rise of powerful local clans who were expanding their influence. By the early 9th century the warlord Mojmir began collecting these walled towns together into a state, and in particular expanding eastwards into modern Slovakia. Mojmir made his capital at Nitra (though "capital" meant seasonal headquarters, as a warlord-king usually traveled his realm most of the year to constantly re-enforce his authority). Mojmir was followed by Rostislav in the 840s, who continued to expand the state's boundaries but more importantly began to deal with his state's relations with its western neighbors - the Franks. Rostislav understood that Moravia's survival required its conversion to Christianity, but he purposely reached for the Christianity that was farther rather than nearer - that of Byzantium. Rostislav invited the Byzantines in 863 to send missionaries to Moravia, and two brothers from Thessalonika (a Greek city surrounded by Slavs) were chosen, Constantine (who later adopted the monastical name "Cyril") and Methodius. They brought with them a script they'd created for the Slavs, and (southern) Slavic translations of the Christian liturgy, and they founded a Slavic-rite church quickly in Rostislav's lands. Unfortunately, Moravia could not completely escape Frankish advances and Rostislav was forced to allow German priests into his realm, which facilitated an immense tension between the Frankish and Byzantine-rite converts. In 869 Rostislav was defeated and captured by an eastern Frankish king who blinded and deposed him, and (temporarily) the Byzantine-rite church was shut down in Moravia, though friendly relations between the Pope and Methodius led to its re-enstatement a few years later, until Methodius' death in 885. Thereafter, only the western-rite church was allowed in Moravia. In the meantime, Moravia's most successful ruler, Sviatopluk (Rostislav's nephew), had gained power and managed to reduce Frankish influence in Moravia while extending its borders in all directions. It was this period in which the Moravians came to control what is today the southern regions of Poland, including building the cities of Wroclaw and Kraków (though probably on the ruins of earlier fortifications and settlements), as well as old Roman Pannonia (modern western Hungary) and the western parts of the modern Czech Republic. Trade flourished in Moravia under Sviatopluk, and the archaeological record shows a sudden jump in the material well-being of Moravia's cities, including much material wealth brought from abroad.

Sviatopluk's undoing was his choice of allies against the Franks, and to a lesser extent the Bulgarians. He increasingly came to rely on Magyar mercenaries in his wars, in particular using them successfully to fend off Frankish advances and Bulgarian encroachments on Pannonia in 894. The Bulgarians retaliated by launching a coordinated attack with the Pechenegs on the Magyar homeland at the time ("Etelköz"/"Land Between the Rivers", between the Dniestr and Dniepr rivers in modern southern Ukraine) forcing a huge Magyar exodus out of southern Ukraine into the Carpathian Basin, overrunning Sviatopluk's Pannonian lands. The Magyar clans, led in particular by A'rpád, began to seize all of the Carpathian Basin in 895-96, expanding within a few decades southwards into Transylvania and northwards to include Moravia's eastern territories, modern Slovakia. But Sviatopluk did not live to see all that, as he died in 894. Sviatopluk's enemies, the eastern Franks, against whom he had hired the Magyars several times in the 870s and 880s, now turned the tables and allied with the Magyars against Moravia. By 906, the allies had succeeded in destroying the Moravian empire. I've already told you in posts above what became of the Magyars.

(Minor note: After the 1988-90 collapse of communism in Hungary, there was great confusion about how best to repatriate or compensate those who had had lands seized illegally by the communists. This led to questions about those, including Jews, who lost lands through illegal seizures before the communists, e.g., during the war, or etc. In this period of confusion, a brilliant social and political critique magazine called Ludas Matyi composed mostly of political or social cartoons published a cartoon showing the ghost of Sviatopluk inquiring where he could apply for return of seized lands..) :lol:

The death of what western Christians would call later "Moravia Magna" in the early 10th century however, though tragic, was not a complete loss. As I said, Moravia established institutions and traditions of government, church and rule - and resistance to German control - that would be copied and used by successive Western Slavic states over the next two centuries. In the 880s as Sviatopluk expanded Moravian control into Bohemia (modern western Czech Republic), there were already local rulers there who had been forming their own local warlordships, and who merely recognized Moravian suzerainty. After Sviatopluk's death and the disintegration of the Moravian state, one of these - Borivoj - was able to re-organize the western Moravian lands under his clan's leadership - the Premyslids - and found a new state, Bohemia. By Moravia's death knell in 906, Borivoj had already established independent relations with the eastern Franks and won their recognition. His successors - Spytihnev, Vratislav and finally the great first true (Christian) Bohemian prince, Vaclav I (about whom the English Christmas carol "Good King Wencelas" is based) established the Bohemian capital at Prague and while not quite completely breaking from German control, still managing to keep Bohemian institutions separate and functioning.

It's late and I'm tired so this is the end for now, but I'll write more later this week about the Bulgarian empire in the 9th and 10th centuries. The Bulgarians in this period were a major military power in eastern and central Europe, and played a crucial role in mitigating Byzantine power and influence throughout the Balkans - allowing other states such as Croatia, Serbia and Hungary to form and develop. The Bulgarians also tried the same thing the Moravians did, but in reverse - Byzantium was their powerful neighbor, so the Bulgarians tried (a couple times) to convert to western, Roman Christianity before succumbing to the inevitable Byzantine influence.
 
:clap:

Ahhh, those longish, verbose Vrylakasian article-length posts we have all come to know and love. :D
 
Vrylakas said:
The Bulgarians also tried the same thing the Moravians did, but in reverse - Byzantium was their powerful neighbor, so the Bulgarians tried (a couple times) to convert to western, Roman Christianity before succumbing to the inevitable Byzantine influence.
I've tried the same strategy with my neighbors. Seems pretty universally unsuccessful.

From other sources, I'm lead to believe a large number of the upper class/nobility were Christain prior to Cyril and Methodius's visit. The majority of the common people were still pagan, right?

I've read about the slavic fort-towns, and I know the primary building material for houses was wood. Zemnicas, as I believe they are called, were basicaly one room cabins with steeply pitched roofs. Although these were predominant, I have a hard time imagining cities were entirely made up of small cabins, especially state buildings and the nobilities's houses.
 
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