RB13 - Collateral Carnage

Precision bombing? Surgical strikes? What are we, sissies?

No, our doctrine will be to fight wars as bloody as possible! The more damage a unit can do, the better. Carpet bombing! Collateral damage! Carnage! That shall be the way we fight our wars!


Leader: Otto "Barrage" von Bismarck (ind/exp)
Difficulty: Monarch
World Size: Standard
Map Script: Custom continents
Opponents: Eight
Victory Conditions: Domination, conquest, diplomatic

Variant rules:
- If there's more than one enemy unit on a given land square, only units that do collateral damage naturally are allowed to attack (catapults, cannons, artillery, bombers, nukes)
- Diplomatic victory is only allowed if we control at least 40% of the world's population ("Backdoor domination")


Roster:
Kylearan
Sharog
Snaproll
xenikos
Zeviz
Dreylin

You have 24 hours to post a "got it", and another 48 hours to complete your turns. This is not a strict rule; if you need more time then this won't be a problem, but please say so in the given timeframe and keep us updated on your progress.

We start the game with Hunting, so I built a scout first to pop more huts. After that, a warrior was built for two turns to let Berlin to grow to size 3, then a worker, then the warrior resumed.

I decided not to go for any early religion, as we don't start with Mysticism. And indeed, both Buddhism and Hinduism fell early. Instead, I researched Agriculture and Animal Husbandry, to make use of our resources.

My scouts received gold, two warriors, xp and Archery from huts (Arathorn eat your heart out! ), but one had the misfortune to step between two lions at once and is no more.

We also made contact with Isabella, then Monty, and finally Alex. Additionally, F9 shows that Mongolia is also in the game - what is this, the "most hated civs" SG?

The lands around us are only mediocre, and given the neurotic AIs we have on our continents, I started to research Bronze Working next, to see where copper is. Not many beakers have been invested yet though, so we might change plans here. I debated going for an early wonder considering we are industrious and all that, but seeing how close Isabella is, I'd like to focus on founding cities instead. Next turn, Berlin will finish a warrior and will grow to size four, so my suggestion would be to build a settler next. Either try to grab the horses/stone near Isabella, or keep the city close to Berlin.



We have only one hill at Berlin, so please don't chop many forests, if at all - we will need the hammers! (That's too bad in fact, as we are expansive and could have afforded to lose the health bonus from the forests...)

I have played 40 turns, the rest can play 20 for this round, then we'll play 10 turns each.

Sharog, have fun! Although we might want to discuss how to deal with this start first...it could become, uh, interesting.

-Kylearan

Well since I seem to be awake at this ungodly hour (5:30am) for no good reason I thought I'd have a glance at the save. We did want to get some use out of those Seige Weapons, so I guess we can't argue with agressive neighbours too much!

Having said that, we do seem to be somewhat stuck in a corner, so fairly aggressive expansion towards Izzy would seem to be the order of the day, especially as we won't be able to fight an offensive war for a good long while. As long as we pick up her State Religion, she's normally a good friend. The only "problem" of going after that Stone site is that we'd be clashing borders with Madrid - which as Holy City as well as Capital would take a /lot/ of effort for us not to lose that one.... (first build would probably have to be Stonehenge for us to have much of a chance)

Pity really, as a spot in that area would be by /far/ the best production city available for us in this corner! (Although I'd leave it up to better minds to decide where they'd want to put it. The other cities seemed fairly straightforward:




but then what do I know!

On second thought, you're right Dreylin. Better let Izzy settle the stones, and we capture it from her later. We can have four or five (mediocre) cities in our corner, and will have to stop for consolidation then anyway. After that, we should have catapults available for further expansion.

I'd suggest going for the sheep/corn site first, then for the horse/pig site. After that, we should somehow grab the silver resource, as it's our only happiness resource in sight. But maybe there's a super-site hidden under the fog east of Berlin, who knows...?

This could become a challenging opening game. Let's hope Izzy's start isn't the best as well...

-Kylearan

We probably want to get both of them going ASAP to start producing & growing. There's this spot for a fishing village w/2seafood + Deer.



Also note that the offshore island(?) is not just a single tile - it certainly goes S, and the coast suggests it goes SE as well. Maybe once we've settled the two western spots, a Galley (if we have Sailing) or exploratory Workboat would be a good build....

I spy with my little eye... a neighbor whose got the pretty eye and who's name and nickname begin with I. And you want me to ATTACK HER? Aye aye!


- Sirian

got it ;0 wont play till later tonight so have fun discussing abit before hand

I think a weakness of our start location is going to be GNP. It would be nice to shoot for the Colossus, but without an oracle run to get metal casting that's going to be a ways off. Might want to prioritize getting some early cottages up as a result. With our low production potential as well it's going to be a challenging start!

Lurker comment

We also made contact with Isabella, then Monty, and finally Alex. Additionally, F9 shows that Mongolia is also in the game - what is this, the "most hated civs" SG?

Click to expand...

Well imo, swap toku for alex or just add both and you've got it made!!!!

I bless this SG with holy Nyquil and wish you all city attack 1/barrage2 panzers in a timely manner.

Cheers!
-Liq

The sheep/corn site (aka, the city site with by far the most production, which isn't saying a lot) seems like a good spot to build the Oracle - we can even get 3 forest chops in (one of those grassland/forests, the forest on the plains/hill, and that plains forest that we'll never use if we go with that dotmap).

I'm really hoping a fish shows up to the east so we can get a location with some hammer! Those 3 hills are looking tempting.

IT: looking around, the choices for the city-side seems fairly straight forward. hit the button....

2360 BC: A new warrior has been born, and he end up rest of his life guarding our capital. moving the warrior at sheep side towards madrid to see if he is going to send a settler towards us.
Berlin starts on settler...
2320 BC: warrior to the east kills a bear and continue scouting...
Relation check, seems isabella is hated by everyone we know, good to know and lovely to abuse
2280 BC: continue scouting....


thank god it aint a settler in it ;p

2240 BC: our scouting discovered something quite tasty.....
I doubt i ever seen that many resources clump up together like that, and crissed, it aint near us at all ;/ lucky monte


2120 BC: Farms done, BW due in 5, worker moving to chopping position(dont worry it is outside useful boarder)
and some planning for future filler cities


with the 2 tiles irrigated + deer we can work both the gems hills and later perhaps the thunder forest too, but no priority what so ever on this one.

ZzzZz
1975 BC: settler due in 1, BW due in 1, worker in position. Largest civ screen show up, we are..... no where to be found...
scout kills some wild animals.. and barbs are getting archers, so we need to gear up some ourselves as well.

1950 BC: BW done, what to research next.... well, to get priesthood for oracle we gonna waste like 30 turns researching some useless techs that doesnt benefit us at all so due to the low commerce site we have, im gonna research wheel and pottery to get some cottages going asap.
Starting on another settler seems pointless since we wont even have escort for him and the barbarian are getting wild so an archer will be made before the next settler.
1925 BC: sending the settler towards the sheep site without escort, but the road in between is pretty much visiable to us so no worries.
1875 BC: settler in position, archer due in 1, capital size 5 due in 1 (and hit the maximum size for now until we get a religion or lux)
1850 BC: Hamburg has been found, start on a barracks, since it will be our Frontline military base sooner or later and have it produce unit so our low shield capital can focus on Worker/ Settler.

1775 BC: worker finish in berlin, start on another settler, moving the worker towards hamburg to chop the barracks.
1750 BC: Barb Archer just north of berlin so i moved our archer upwards in to the forest to prevent it endanger our worker.

Hamburg chopping crew will be in position next turn and can start chopping

and here is a final view of our glorius empire + chopping pos for the barracks:


EDIT: oops forgot to link the save

I've got it, but am too tired to comment tonight. I will look it over and play tomorrow

Good call going for Pottery next! I agree with Snaproll that commerce might become a problem for us (like everything else it seems ).

Liq said:

I bless this SG with holy Nyquil and wish you all city attack 1/barrage2 panzers in a timely manner.

Click to expand...

Thanks, but no Panzers for us, artillery only. But I'm looking forward to see combat II/barrage II/city raider III arty in action.

-Kylearan

Inherited turn. Thigs are proceeding nicely, but this is going to be a tough game with the start we've been dealt! The lack of copper likely means no colossus, which is too bad given all the lakes we have. We'll want to get fishing soon to start working them I think, regardless. In fact, fishing may be more beneficial in the short term than cottages...

Turn 1 - I decide to have the worker irrigate the corn before chopping the barracks.

Turn 2 - Our scout runs afoul of a barbarian archer. He's woodsman 2 and in the trees, maybe we'll luck out? The worker near Hamburg is moving to mine the grassland hill, escorted by the archer. I note that there is the possiblilty of seafood just east of Berlin, but I can't move the warrior out to investigate because we are at the happiness limit. This is one of the worst financial starts I've ever seen! A tech hole is essentially inevitable.

Turn 3 - Our scout is destroyed. Sigh.

Turn 4 - The road comes in and I start fishing... I know that pottery was queued up but fishing comes in much earlier and working the lake tiles will help us get to pottery more efficiently. Fishing due in 8 turns, pottery was going to take nearly twice that. Controversial, maybe, but dangit, we need some tiles with coins on them! Now our warrior runs afoul of archers! Argh!

Turn 5 - Our warrior manages to defeat the archers and retreats into the trees to heal. Our settler in Berlin is complete, but has no escort. Berlin is at the happiness limit so I MM it for max production. I move the settler out unescorted - there are only a few tiles that could pose barb trouble.

Turn 6 -

Tirn 7 - Our setter makes it to the horse site unscathed.

Turn 8 - Munich founded. Archer complete in Berlin, so I move the warrior out to check for seafood to the east. The worker is moving towards to hook up the horses in Munich. Munich starts on a barracks because there really isn't much else to build! I'll do pottery right after sailing is finished (hopefully with lake tiles working it'll take a lot less that 15 turns) but then we'll need mysticism - no way to expand our borders right now!

Turn 9 -

Turn 10 - Anyone know why the number of turns remaining isn't showing up in the victory screen window? I've lost track of how many I've played! Worker finished irrigating the corn and starts the barracks chop. The warrior looking east doesn't find any seafood... Ugh. This is almost adventure 2ish!

Turn 11 - Fishing comes in and rearranging Berlin makes pottery due in 7 turns. Note that this is the SAME turn it would have come in on if we researched it straight away! Production suffers, though, but we don't have a terrible lot of things to build at the moment. I start another archer for future escort duties.

Turn 12 - It's confirmed, no seafood. We may want to consider revolting to slavery once we get come buildings to build. Our low happiness limits make it dicey, but we are high food in two of our cities.

Turn 13 - We've got one archer headed west in case Isabella gets frisky early, and our other warrior is just busting fog.

Turn 14 - Our scouting warrior is finally healee, starts moving again.

Turn 15 - Chop completes in Hamburg, so the barracks is nearly done.

Turn 16 - Archer complete in Berlin, and I go ahead and start another settler. I MM Berlin again to kick the settler out sooner, but move some of our forest workers onto the lake again to keep pottery coming in 3 turns.

Turn 17 - Our scouting warrior ends up next to another barb warrior.

Turn 18 - Well I screwed up and got our scouting warrior killed. Sigh. Pottery comes in and I start mysticism - we really need obelisks. The barracks in Hamburg finishes, so I start an archer. Judaism is founded and there are barb archers descending from the north. I move one of our archers that way to maybe pick up some experience.

Turn 19 -

Turn 20 - I start on our first cottage. The barbarians are going to pillage a mine next turn. I should have probably left a guard on it - that's my fault.


This is going to be a difficult game. The way I see it is that unless a relgigion spreads to us, we have no happiness resources (even after calendar) and we will have our cities stuck at size four until hereditary rule (that comes with monarchy). That, and the fact that we have a very limited research capability, is going to make this game VERY challenging. One some ways, this is an even more difficult start than adventure 2!

I'm also almost sure I screwed up the turn count - I'm used to relying on the # of turns remaining readout on the victory screen. I think I know why it's not there - time victory is disabled, no? The next player can even it out if desired.


Here is the save

This does remind me of Adventure 2, so I'd vote for Adventure 2 strategy: aggressive military push towards better lands. An important thing to remember is that we can fight wars only until Feudalism is discovered. In the age of Axemen and Archers, Catapults are among the most powerful units. In the age of Longbows and Macemen, catapults can only soften up the enemy for real attackers, which we aren't allowed to use. So any aggression we want has to happen early.

Thus, I'd vote for researching Writing -> Math -> Construction and not founding more than a few cities. With this cash-strapped start, we shouldn't build any city that will not be able to support itself financially and be a production powerhouse or give us access to a vital resource.

PS Don't build too many regular units, because we will not be able to use them. There are only so many axemen you can plant on a hill until the enemy simply decides to go around.

I've taken a look at the save and found a spot that might work for our silver city (see attachment). It captures 3 cottagable grasslands that are too far from Berlin and gets the silver, along with a plains hill that can get a windmill (much) later. The 3 cottages will be enough to make the city pay for itself. However, it would need stonehenge to be viable (unless we want to chop a tundra forest for an obelisk).

Should we go for Stonehenge? We could get it with 4 forest chops and there are plenty of tundra forests north of Hamburg, as well as forested hill near Hamburg and a forested hill closer to Stone location. Actually, we would need even less forest chops since we are industrious.

Hi,

good thinking about getting Fishing first! The missing number of turns display is indeed my fault; I had disabled the "time" victory. Not sure why exactly I did that, though...

This is indeed a very challenging start; more challenging in fact than I had intended, given the variant rules. I like to play the cards that are dealt to me though, so I hope it's okay for the rest of the team if we play this out, especially for Dreylin who hasn't played Monarch yet. Don't worry, what's the worst that can happen? Losing is like winning to me, as I will have learned a lot at least.

I agree with Zeviz: Let's try to get some better lands from the Spanish. And we really need a silver city for the extra (two) happiness; size 5/6 instead of size 4 happiness limit makes a huge difference!

I also say let's try going for Stonehenge. If we lose it, at least we will have some gold in our treasury to fund 100% research towards catapults. I think we should research currency before construction though. The extra trade route should give us enough commerce to get construction similarly fast, especially because we have so few other sources of commerce.


Roster:
Kylearan
Sharog
Snaproll -> just played
xenikos -> UP NOW
Zeviz -> on deck
Dreylin

-Kylearan

Kylearan said:

I also say let's try going for Stonehenge. If we lose it, at least we will have some gold in our treasury to fund 100% research towards catapults. I think we should research currency before construction though. The extra trade route should give us enough commerce to get construction similarly fast, especially because we have so few other sources of commerce.

Click to expand...

I agree! With our industrious trait it makes massive sense to build stonehenge in lieu of even 2 or 3 obselisks. Plus we can possibly net ourselves a religion of our ownsies out of the ensuing great prophet. So uh...now to the turn!

I have to agree. I had "we aren't going for stonehenge" in my mind because we put mysticism off so long, but you all are right, it would really help. And, with worker chops, we may just pull it off! That would be great.

I don't know why I forgot about the silver. I agree that getting it connected is a top priority. It will be a long time for forges unless we can pull the Oracle out of some magical posterior nether-region, but still, it is a top priority.

If we are feeling lucky, we could even try for colossus. AIs usually research Metal Casting quite late, so even with no copper and low production, we'd have a huge head start if we go staight for it. We do have lots of water, so Colossus could be quite valuable.