Triangle Diplomacy

[polypheus]

Many new players, it seems, do not practice diplomacy in an organized, coherent way but in a "spur of the moment" haphazard way. For example, an AI request will come up which asks you to "stop trade with someone" or "give tribute/help", "declare war", etc and I think many beginners just decide at the moment what "feels" best with no long term planning. But this isn't the best or most interesting approach.

What you should do, upon founding your empire and exploring the land is to see who and where the AI Civs are located and how powerful they are, then decide who is going to be your your long-term ally. Then using the F4 screen, figure out who another Civ that the potential ally really likes (and presumably that third civ likes back) that you also would want as an ally. Then you will attempt to (as much as possible) get relations between you and these two Civs as high as possible, forsaking all others when necessary. The key to remember is that you must ally with two Civs that themselves are extremely friendly to another thus avoiding the "trading with enemy" penalty and also the awkward situation where each ally asks you to war on the other! This usually but not necessarily requires you to have the same official religion as these other two Civs.

And that means that when they ask for reasonable tribute, you give it. That means when they ask you to stop trade with those outside the triangle, you do it. That means when they ask you to join in war, you do it if it is safe to do so (and it is a huge bonus to do it as it prevents the -1 you failed to help us in war but rather gives +1to4 for mutual struggle). Realize though that when you do that, that other Civ will be a lifelong enemy most likely but that okay. Of course, it means that relations with some of those Civs outside of the triangle will probably be irreplably harmed but it is much better to have strong friends and strong haters than to have everyone cautious or annoyed at you.

Now it is important to avoid having "backstabbing" or "rogue" or particularly warlike nations in the triangle. Although all AIs will backstab if you are too weak or present too much of a target (so in all cases having a credible military is a must), some do it much more than others. Montezuma and Isabella come to mind in most cases. Avoiding warlike civs is also good because you might otherwise be forced into too many wars and being a pariah nation yourself.

But it is important to also realize that you can shift or change the triangle as the situation unfolds. Unless you're playing with very few Civs, if you're playing with 8 or more, its unlikely that you have great relations within the triangle but all others hating you. Say you have a triangle with A and B but also have good relations with C and A also have good relations with C. You may then decide to have C in the triangle and drop B. So in this way, you can shift the triangle from time to time. But by focusing on two at a time, you will find the game proceeds much better than trying to equally please and equally displease everyone.

[spiceant]

it sounds all great but what if someone in your triangle turns out to be your competitor?

[inspire]

Agree, that is not easy to keep a banlance between the "friends" and enemies"

No eternity firends and enemies. Sometimes u should change your positions.

Originally Posted by spiceant

it sounds all great but what if someone in your triangle turns out to be your competitor?

[RED DIAMOND]

Good points. I realized on higher levels diplomacy and allies are the key to victory many times. I had to go to war across the pond to protect Hatty from being overrun by Catherine. Catherine was second to me in points and continued to gain ground and overtook me with each of Hatties cities she took.

Seeing this unfold was VERY disturbing so, I sent lots of help and went to War to protect Hatty and my lead. After re-taking several cites and returning them to Hatty, Catherine offered me peace. I made her make peace with Hatty as well and thus preserved my lead.

I had no intention to go to War at that time, but if I did not and I "let" Catherine kill Hatty and more importantly take the valuable cities and territory, I would have lost. Their continent was almost double the size of my puny island

This is a very fun game

[Zombie69]

I say to hell with diplomacy and just kill everyone!

[RED DIAMOND]

Originally Posted by Zombie69

I say to hell with diplomacy and just kill everyone!

Not an option on the higher levels

[ionimplant]

very good points! i'll practise these in my games.

[polypheus]

Originally Posted by spiceant

it sounds all great but what if someone in your triangle turns out to be your competitor?

In that case, you shift to a new triangle as I have suggested. If you are have a strong friendship with A & B and find A turns out to be a competitor, find someone that B likes a lot (call that Civ C) and that you also have decent relations with and make B & C your new triangle.

On a somewhat related note, I should also point out that you need to check relations between A & B regularly. If A & B's relationship starts to sour, you may then be forced to shift to a new triangle as well even if you don't need or want to.

[polypheus]

The other advantage that I forgot to mention is that with the triangle approach, you gain the benefit not only of the friendship with the other two Civs, helpful for your security and well being generally but also helps to enhance enmity of your enemies to your triangle allies.

Remember that there is a penalty of "you declared war on my friend" which the triangle approach helps greatly for you to take advantage of.

As you have very high relations with these two Civs (A & B), if a third Civ E declares war on you, both of your allies will automatically lower their relations with Civ E due to the negative "you declared war on my friend" penalty. This makes it a easier to enlist A or B as war allies against Civ E. Also Civ E now have more hostile Civs against it and this helps keep it in check.

Of course, sometimes (and it is fun when it happens), this approach will then cause some of those outside the triangle to form their own triangles and makes coalition style world wars more possible too.

[greentea]

If the triangle is enhanced by a common religion, you have good chances for a diplomatic win (assuming standard 6 opponents), I achieved my first on Prince this way.

[Indiana]

Yes I agree.

I am in a game right now, granted only on Prince Diff but a custom map with 17 other Civs, but diplomacy is critical.

Early on I identified who I would be fighting and who was likely to stay a long time friend. Not only that, but be a 'viable' friend in the long run... not get killed off in 300 turns.
3 neighbors basically...Isabella, Peter and Fredrick. Fredrick was the obvious friend choice and 'buffer'. Isabella had to be taken out first then Peter.

It took a bit in getting this setup. I traded tech to Fredrick to make sure that he continued to like me, would go to war if I asked (I did the same in reverse) and that he would not get ram rodded by this neighbors. I did just about everything he asked except a few tech deals and trading for my Marble, but he would accept lesser deals instead. I didn't want him completing wonders before me

It has worked out very well, we are currently on 'Friendly' terms and ranked 1st and 2nd and the only 2 Civs under the a certain religion which I founded It took quite a bit of diplomatic maneuvering, trading and going to war when he asked but has paid off many many times over.

[maltz]

I found that in higher dificulties (Immortal, for example), Montezuma will declare war to you no matter how far away he is, and how powerful you are. It is very annoying...

[JerichoHill]

On a monarch game recently, I started next to Monty.

For that very reason, I rushed him

[dyrcosis]

Thanks for pointing out the usefulness of a trade triangle. I had been kinda doing it but not quite so proactively. Course, I'm only on my second game of Civ IV so I'm still learning all sorts of things about this version of the game (some good, some not so good).

[PopTarts]

Originally Posted by maltz

I found that in higher dificulties (Immortal, for example), Montezuma will declare war to you no matter how far away he is, and how powerful you are. It is very annoying...

I think this is true on any difficulty.

[suspendinlight]

I usually play on standard maps with 18 aggressive civs on monarch so you can imagine diplomacy is very important. I agree that diplomacy needs to be thought through and planned ahead, and I think that your idea of a "triangle" is a good starting principle, but there is much more involved in good diplomacy. A couple of tips:
1) Most importantly, consider not just power in diplomatic relations, but also the leader's personality (if not playing random personalities). You will learn general principles from observation. For example, Montezuma can be bribed to attack just about anyone if you have decent relations with him, Isabella will despise you if you don't take her religion, and Mansa Musa will continue trading with you until he is furious.
2) Keep threatening agressive civs busy. For example, Monte is often behind in techs with a huge military. Bribe him with a tech or two to attack one of your competitors who doesn't like you much.
3) Keep advanced financial civs busy. These are the guys you are going to want Monte to attack. Otherwise, their economy will be booming and they will out tech you. By having Monte's hordes pillage their cottages, you can zip ahead in the tech race.
4) Try to pick allies in the middle of the pack. You don't want the strongest civ to be your ally (unless you think you can out space-race them or they have a huge population to help you win diplomatic) because with your help, they will only get stronger and it will be difficult to overcome them militarily since you will probably have few other strong allies. You also don't want the weakest civ as your ally because they won't be able to do anything for you.
5) Unless you found an early religion and plan to promote it, don't be afriad to not adopt religion right away. Often, it is a bad move diplomatically so be sure you know the Ancient diplo situation before adopting.
6) Plan ahead. Always be thinking about your next couple of strategic moves. If you know that you are eventually going to have to attack Cyrus to expand your empire, but are busy with other things, don't trade a bunch of useful military techs to him.
7) Always reasses your entire diplomatic situation when a new strategic resource is revealed. Usually this means Horses, Copper, Iron, Oil, and Aluminum. If an enemy has a resource on the fringes of their empire or none at all, they make a good target for quick action. On the other hand, if an enemy has several of the resource, they could become a threat to your power so either befriend them or prepare for a large-scale war.
8) Be dynamic. Don't be afraid to let go of friends if you need to or ally yourself with former enemies. But always check the diplomatic table before you make any drastic policy changes.

[johnny_rico]

@Maltz and Poptarts and whomever,

I just finished my first game (played on noble), was Monty's neighbor, and he never declared war on me. He went back and forth from cautious to pleased. At the end, he became annoyed but I eked out a cultural victory before he had a chance to declare war on me. The game ended in the 1940's, he was amassing his forces on various fronts. He more than likely could have taken some cities, I played pacifism almost the entire game and had little military.

I fully expected him to come after me. I used the U.N. to mess with his civics but I can't say if that had an effect on his actions.

[ruff_hi]

What are the various sources of positive modifies and negative modifies? Does someone have a list and how they work. As I understand it, "+X you trade with us" can give a "-X you trade with our enemy". and the Xs are linked.

[johnny_rico]

religion
going to war with or refusing to help
yielding to requests for resources or tech
starting deals or canceling deals
longevity of relations

These are a handful of factors that will influence other leaders opinions of you. I don't know the specific values assigned to these variables but I believe time and severity of request may have an influence of the assigned value. Plus, if you refuse a civ the same request over and over, I believe the minus (-) reaction is cumulative.

[Chillaxation]

Originally Posted by Zombie69

I say to hell with diplomacy and just kill everyone!

What I've come to love best about reading your posts, Zombie, is your unerring sense of le mot juste.