Science Discussion 3A: What techs are we willing to trade?

Well, the time has come to start looking at which techs we are willing to trade, and with whom. We will be completing Alphabet in the next TC, and I will be requesting the DP to stop play after Alphabet is complete (so we can take a look at our options: who we can trade with, and what we can trade for).

I understand this is a foreign policy issue as well, but since what we get from trading techs will weigh into what I decide to research next, it falls under my purview. I will be working closely with Chieftess on this, as it is her final decision what we can trade; my decision is only what we research next. I just wanted to get the ball rolling.

So with that said, what are your initial thoughts on what techs we should trade, and to whom should we trade them?? Things may change once we find out what trades are available, but it would be good to have a general idea. For instance, I think it would be in our best interests to NOT trade any military techs to Mongolia.

Go ahead and post your thoughts here. They will weigh into my decision, as I haven't made up my mind yet. I'll post my personal opinion after I get some input.

Here's a link to the Ministry of Science Thread. There you can find all of the techs we can get (and the number of turns), the tech tree, and any other relevant information.

get any and all techs avaible. I don't care what it costs, just get them. But don't trade with the Mongols.

I wouldn't even exclude the Mongols. Having beelined for Alphabet I think that we should drain every drop of benefit that we can from it, even if that means trading with the Mongols.

just dont trade them any military techs...

robboo said:

just dont trade them any military techs...

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I'd be amazed if we have any military techs that they don't!

yeah I know....I was speaking morelong term than just them.


We are very weak militarily...I hope we( I) can change that next month.

The mongols are horrible people who eat babies and shave there wives hair so they can use it to elongat there beards. We must destroy them, and in the mean time not trade them any techs!

Let's shop around for the best possible trades. The sky's the limit.

Chillaxation said:

Let's shop around for the best possible trades. The sky's the limit.

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Thats no kind of thinking if we are going for space race!

Sigma said:

I understand this is a foreign policy issue as well, but since what we get from trading techs will weigh into what I decide to research next, it falls under my purview. I will be working closely with Chieftess on this, as it is her final decision what we can trade; my decision is only what we research next.

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This sort of talk always bothers me in a demogame. Isn't the final decison these matters (and all others) up to us as citizens? I do hope you and Chieftess remember this.

I don't quite understand what we're researching. Here's the list from the thread linked to in your post:

Sigma said:

Currently Being Researched
1. Alphabet (18)
2. Mathematics (23)

Recently Researched
Writing
Hunting
Mysticism

Available Techs
Fishing (4)
Archery (5)
Horseback Riding (23)
Meditation (8)
Polytheism (9)
Masonry (6)
Iron Working (18)
Metal Casting (40)
Drama (32) After Alphabet
Currency (42) After Mathematics

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Makes it look like we're researching both alphabet and math right now. That can't be so, can it? It also looks like we've decided to research both dramam and currency after we learn alphabet and math. So does that mean you're asking us to decide what we should research after alphabet, math, drama and currency?

We got writing before alphabet. Didn't know that could be done now. The old civ games required alphabet first. So now we realize writing can be done without an alphabet!

As for trading alphabet, it would help if you gave us some idea of who has what techs.

Math requires Alpha IIRC.

BE careful with trading any and everything. The AI will resent us for getting ahead and it will be there the ENTIRE game.

I think that we do need to trade a bit, but not to the extent Swiss Cheese is suggesting


EDIT:: Apparently I do NOT recall correctly. Math only has a pre-req of Writing.

donsig said:

Makes it look like we're researching both alphabet and math right now. That can't be so, can it? It also looks like we've decided to research both dramam and currency after we learn alphabet and math. So does that mean you're asking us to decide what we should research after alphabet, math, drama and currency?

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I took it to mean that Alphabet and Mathematics are in our research queue - Alpha first (which is what we are currently researching), then Maths. The 'Drama after Alphabet' and 'Currency after Mathematics' I took to mean that they would only be available to be researched after we have researched Alpha or Maths as appropriate (presumably in case someone says "Drop Maths from the research queue and go for Currency after Alpha instead")

Donsig,

This sort of talk always bothers me in a demogame. Isn't the final decison these matters (and all others) up to us as citizens? I do hope you and Chieftess remember this.

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Of course I understand this. Technically the final decision is mine, but I plan on taking a lot of citizen input into account, otherwise I wouldn't even be asking for the citizens to discuss this. If I were to go against a strong majority, it would be political suicide. But if the populace is divided or indeterminate, it falls in my hands to make the decision.

Makes it look like we're researching both alphabet and math right now. That can't be so, can it? It also looks like we've decided to research both dramam and currency after we learn alphabet and math. So does that mean you're asking us to decide what we should research after alphabet, math, drama and currency?

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Sorry if this list wasn't clear. This means that currently the research queue is first Alphabet, then Mathematics (hence the 1, 2). I may change this though, based on what we can get through trade. The list of available techs are the techs that we can start researching right now with the techs that we have. The ones in red will become available after that tech is finished - in other words, we will be able to research drama after alphabet (but we may not do that). None of those in the available techs list are in the research queue though.

As for trading alphabet, it would help if you gave us some idea of who has what techs.

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We don't know yet, because we need alphabet to see what techs the other civs have. We'll get alphabet next TC, that's why I'll be requesting the DP to stop play after we get it.

As SoW...

I hope we dont go to far up that branch of the tree without hitting some important military techs that give us things like catapults and maybe even dropping back to get archery and iron working.

While "pure" knowledge is great, we are out powered right now by 2 opponents. All in culture and book learning wont do us anygood versus Russian or German forces.

I suggest..balance between top and bottom of the tree.

Sigma said:

Donsig,
Of course I understand this. Technically the final decision is mine, but I plan on taking a lot of citizen input into account, otherwise I wouldn't even be asking for the citizens to discuss this. If I were to go against a strong majority, it would be political suicide. But if the populace is divided or indeterminate, it falls in my hands to make the decision.

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No, I don't think you do understand. In the course of discussing this (or any other subject) the citizens are actually making the decision in the form of a mandate. If you were to go against a majority, be it strong or weak, you would be violating the constitution and subject to judicial action.

To get back on topic, it would be helpful if this discussion included some sort of short summary about why we've researched what we have thus far, what research goals we had in mind and what direction our country is hoping to go. This would help us to contribute to the discussion as good citizens and gives you (the minister) an opportunity to lead us down the path you think we should be taking.

There seem to be two views on trading. Don't trade military techs to the Mongols on one hand; get all we can get from alphabet on the other. It would be good to know if the Mongols are crowding us or threatening us. Are we a peace loving nation or warmongers? What do we want our identity to be? These are things we should take into account when making these decisions, not just what's the *best* strategy to win the game.

Having a short summary in this thread should help spur discussion in a production manner.

There is a third view on trading.....


Don't go overboard so that the AI won't trade with us.

@Donsig - Are you saying that for any elected official that starts a discussion, if a majority of 1 citizen speaks up for a certain course that official is bound by that?

Take for example a discussion where 7 citizens are actively participating and it is split 4-3 for/against a particular action. An official who was elected 25 for 10 against, would be bound by that discussion? That seems like a recipe for disaster as a small handful of citizens could counter the expressed will of the much larger majority in the form of Constituency over Mandate.

Bengeance said:

@Donsig - Are you saying that for any elected official that starts a discussion, if a majority of 1 citizen speaks up for a certain course that official is bound by that?

Take for example a discussion where 7 citizens are actively participating and it is split 4-3 for/against a particular action. An official who was elected 25 for 10 against, would be bound by that discussion? That seems like a recipe for disaster as a small handful of citizens could counter the expressed will of the much larger majority in the form of Constituency over Mandate.

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Agreed, elections are the final word of the citizens. If someone wants to remain elected, then they will do what the majority of citizens want, if not... then they won't.

If they cause to much trouble, it's what we have impeachment for.

It's time we make elections into something more than a popularity contest, and maybe people will vote for someone who actually listens to them [the people].

If were not going to give our elected officials any real power, then why the hell are we even bothering to elect them?

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Back on-topic. I say we try to grab up every technology we can get, except archery. Okay, if there is a deal that just happens to include archery, then lets go for it, but lets not make a strong effort to acquire it. In about 10 to 15 turns it's going to be out-dated (hell, it might already be out-dated). Let's not waste our gold on it...

Donsig-

No, I don't think you do understand. In the course of discussing this (or any other subject) the citizens are actually making the decision in the form of a mandate. If you were to go against a majority, be it strong or weak, you would be violating the constitution and subject to judicial action.

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Hence the political suicide part. Trust me, I don't plan on doing it. The wording that I should've used in my original post was "it's my responsibility to instruct the DP on the next research, while it's Chieftess's responsibility to instruct the DP on which techs to trade." I intend to make my instructions as close to the will of the citizenry as possible.

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Bengeance-

Take for example a discussion where 7 citizens are actively participating and it is split 4-3 for/against a particular action. An official who was elected 25 for 10 against, would be bound by that discussion? That seems like a recipe for disaster as a small handful of citizens could counter the expressed will of the much larger majority in the form of Constituency over Mandate.

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I think this boils down to whether this is a representative democracy, where we make decisions for the citizens, or if it is a direct democracy, where our real purpose is to provide advice and opinions, but put into effect what they decide as a whole. I think that it is more of the latter, although there are some ambiguities. In the Code of Laws, it states "The Minister of Science shall choose what technology will be researched." This contradicts with the heirarchy of decisions in the Constitution, where mandate is at the bottom. The Constitution is the supreme law however, and supercedes the Code of Laws.

Like I've been saying, I can't think of any scenarios in which I'd actually go against the public anyway. Because even if it was Constitutionally allowed, I probably wouldn't get voted for in the following term. I'm sorry to drag this issue on, but I want to clear things up so that way people don't think I'm going to just do whatever I want. That's not what this position is about at all, and I understand that I would probably be impeached, or never elected again if I decided to take things into my own hands.

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Robboo-

I hope we dont go to far up that branch of the tree without hitting some important military techs that give us things like catapults and maybe even dropping back to get archery and iron working.

While "pure" knowledge is great, we are out powered right now by 2 opponents. All in culture and book learning wont do us anygood versus Russian or German forces.

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Actually, I was thinking about getting Iron Working next. I actually don't like having Mathematics next, but that's what was in the queue when I became minister. Unfortunately, it's hard to come up with a definitive strategy until we know what we'll get from trade, so we have to wait until after the next TC before deciding what to do. I'll definitely keep you in mind.

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To All:

Thank you to those who have participated in this discussion! I'm planning on posting a poll tonight so I can get an idea what the general feeling is (I'm sure there are quite a few people who have opinions but haven't voiced them). I'll make the poll with the following options:

Maximum trade with all civs
Maximum trade, except for military techs with Mongolia
Maximum trade, except don't trade with Mongolia
Minimal trade so we don't get too far ahead

This poll will be an opinion poll so I can work up a trade plan. After the next TC, I will login and look at all of the possible techs we can trade, and propose a trade plan similar to the decision reached in this poll. Please let me know if your opinion isn't covered by these poll options and I'll add it in before I post the poll tonight.

Bengeance said:

@Donsig - Are you saying that for any elected official that starts a discussion, if a majority of 1 citizen speaks up for a certain course that official is bound by that?

Take for example a discussion where 7 citizens are actively participating and it is split 4-3 for/against a particular action. An official who was elected 25 for 10 against, would be bound by that discussion? That seems like a recipe for disaster as a small handful of citizens could counter the expressed will of the much larger majority in the form of Constituency over Mandate.

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That's exactly what I'm saying. I do stand corrected on the terminology though. Citizen discussion is constituency whereas a mandate is when an elected official uses his or her decision without any input what-so-ever from citizens. The constitution clearly states that *citizen input has precedence over mandate*. If that input is from one citizen then it still is higher in the decision making hierarchy than mandate is.

Bear in mind that referendums and iniatives both are higher up the chain than either mandate or constituency. It is the wise minister who encourages not only discussion but posts proper polls along the way when needed.

Strider said:

If were not going to give our elected officials any real power, then why the hell are we even bothering to elect them?

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We elect them since we need some sort of organization to ensure that the DP takes the actions we (the people) want taken. We call this oganization a government and we divvy up different areas to different ministers and entrust them with the formal posting of explicit instructions to the DP. The minister's job is to find out what the people want and see that it is done. A minister's job is not to decide what should be done irregardless of what the people want.

Always a pleasure to help out a newbie, Strider.

Sigma said:

Actually, I was thinking about getting Iron Working next. I actually don't like having Mathematics next, but that's what was in the queue when I became minister. Unfortunately, it's hard to come up with a definitive strategy until we know what we'll get from trade, so we have to wait until after the next TC before deciding what to do. I'll definitely keep you in mind.

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Don't be afraid to open a discussion on changing the queue. We are allowed to change our minds about things. I think iron working might be more important now than math, too.

One way of helping to decide not only the queue but what to trade away or for is to poll, using the multi-vote option. How about a poll listing some techs and asking citizens to vote on which ones should be given high priority. The results of the poll could be used to determine what we'd like to get from a trade then after the dealing we could queue up high priority techs we couldn't buy. We'd need another poll to determine what we'd like to trade and not trade.

I see no reason not to trade writing, hunting or mysticism. The top three for trading / researching for me are iron working, math and currency.