Buildaholics Anonymous

I don't know about you guys but I've been having real trouble scoring highly and tend to get bored at the end game.... what, space again!

I am a self-confessed buildaholic and have played civ4 almost exactly the same as its previous incarnations. This means going for culture/space victories and getting random DOW's from the AI at the cruicial moment. I can win fairly easily on Noble given a financial leader so tend to pick one of those each time and go for same old same old strategies.

I have tried to break the addiction to turtling by forcing myself to play with random settings but usually give up when things aren't going well. I have found one way to make wars more appealing instead of jumping out of my chair every time I hear the horns blow (gets me every time!)

Here's one buildaholic's tips for breaking out of the rut....

1. Pick an agressive civ (second trait not as essential)
2. If you feel it necessary, regenerate the map until it looks like a sweet start.
3. If you start with mining then go for Bronze working as soon as practical
4. Repeat the mantra "Attack the neighbours, attack the neighbours" to remind yourself that your early focus is on pointy stick expansion.
5. Build at least 3 units for every improvement you want to build.
6. Agressive civs get a free combat 1 promo to all melee units, build a cheap barracks and get a level 3 unit right off the bat!
7. No seriously, build military until it numbers way more than you're used to!
(In a typical builder game I'll have 2-3 units for every city, you need to at least double that!)
8. When you have enough units to take an enemy city in 1 turn (I've found a 2:1 ratio of axemen/swords to archers works well), move your units to the edge of their borders then declare war.
9. Keep building units! You will incur losses so deal with it!
10. Resist the lovely shiny libraries for now.
11. If you simply must found a religion then go for Confucianism cos the courthouses are way more useful to you than the religion itself.
12. When attacking go for the best defensive spots (obvious, but don't attack across a river!)
13. If it goes pear shaped then pay for peace and rebuild your military then bulid the improvements!
14. Don't leave it too late to declare, at some point you need to actually take a risk!

Point 14 is the one I had the most difficulty with, I never knew how many units was optimal so would chicken out of war. You won't get a feel for a powerful military until you've been the agressor a few times.

I just won a game as the Greeks where I took out my 2 nearest neighbours fairly early. Easiest game I've ever played, highest scoring and earliest victory! My very own pb. (of course I'm not going to share the actual values cos they're very much on the pathetic side )

So in summary, builders need to build a military then actually use it!

Not bad. I'm a shameless warmonger but I like to play for culture or space race for a nice break from the norm (attack, attack, attack, peace, let my citizens get unpissedoff, rinse, repeat), so I'll toss in a few thoughts for you.

1) Aggressive isn't all it's cracked up to be. Even as a warmonger I still go for financial. Being able to rush-build units every turn or two and keep up (stay ahead) on research is far more valuable than having an extra 10% power on your units. If you're having a hard time cracking open a city throw some catapults at it.

2) Cheap, but I won't argue with it

3) No matter what you start with beeline for BW, then Pottery, then Alphabet, then Code of Laws/Monarchy. BW lets you chop rush, which gives you a huge leg up on the AI early on.

4) True. I like to hold off on the early attack until the land is filled in and the barbs are gone though. Sometimes if I take a civ out super early my pointy-stick expansion phase will actually be against the barbarians if a large wilderness area is left over and nobody but me can access it.

5) Stick with 1:1 until you get your core improvements built. You need those libraries and markets and courthouses or you'll fall behind in tech, which is really bad on the higher difficulties. If you need units pop or chop rush them. I'd suggest sticking with slavery till you switch to Emancipation just because of this. (whips FTW!)

6) Combat I is way overrated. Stick with a barracks and the one promotion you get off of it. If you have problems just throw catabpults at stacks and cities to soften them up, the loss of a few catapults will more than pay for itself. Later on you can just bomb them back to the stone age for an improved effect.

7) I agree - I try to maintain garrisons of at least 3-4 units in every city, double or triple that in border cities and coastal cities likely to suffer a sea invasion. Don't forget to upgrade your obselete stuff, the AI seems to know where all your units are all the time and will hit you where you are weak.

8) 2:1 is good, more is always better. Don't forget to bring siege weapons to bring down those pesky walls and cultural defenses, you'll suffer fewer losses. If you feel too rushed for time to engage in siege warfare pick a longer game type (this is one of the main reasons I only play Marathon)

9) Yep yep

10) Completely wrong - you MUST build science improvements or you'll fall behind. Prioritize so your most productive commerce cities get them first. Same with gold improvements (bank, etc). You need the gold and the beakers or you won't be able to keep the war machine rolling. Maintenance costs will kick your ass if you're not careful and nobody ever conquered the world with an obsolete military.

11) Agree - usually it's easier to capture a holy city than found one, especially on prince and up.

12) Also agree - bombard from hills and forests whenever possible.

13) You should never have to pay for peace - get HIM to pay for peace while you build your next invasion wave. If you can't get his cities right away pillage everything in sight - it'll really slow him down during the 10 turns of peace.

14) Also agree - you should never declare though if you think you might actually lose - dont' forget the AI fights like an idiot, if you're outgunned you can declare & defend and let them kill themselves on your fortified positions, then counterattack.

Thanks for the feedback, I should really have said that this was for the very early game (pre cats etc) and is kind of a stepping stone for those stuck in a builder rut to break the addiction.

I am a noble player wanting to move onto prince, my limiting factor is definitely territory size, I have mastered cottaging and keeping up with techs but cannot do that and go a-conquering at the same time.

I think that is mainly because I'm "scared" of combat so these are the steps I've taken to get a bit of fighting experience before working on a complete strategy.

I always thought I didn't build enough units, your statement on 1:1 was an eyeopener.... might try going to war even earlier next time!

I suppose it's like being on the high diving board and plucking up the courage to jump!

mabellino said:

Thanks for the feedback, I should really have said that this was for the very early game (pre cats etc) and is kind of a stepping stone for those stuck in a builder rut to break the addiction.

I am a noble player wanting to move onto prince, my limiting factor is definitely territory size, I have mastered cottaging and keeping up with techs but cannot do that and go a-conquering at the same time.

I think that is mainly because I'm "scared" of combat so these are the steps I've taken to get a bit of fighting experience before working on a complete strategy.

I always thought I didn't build enough units, your statement on 1:1 was an eyeopener.... might try going to war even earlier next time!

I suppose it's like being on the high diving board and plucking up the courage to jump!

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You can do it with 1:1 if you do a few things:

Make sure that you've got enough Siege weapons to take down the cities to 0 defense before attacking with your units.

Maintain at least one tech level advantage over your enemies.

Include one or two garrison units with your stacks to put in the new cities so that your promoted aggressor units can continue on.

Tom

Some comments from a constant warmonger :

1. Pick an agressive civ (second trait not as essential)
Ok but not necessary. Romans are the best warmongers and they're not even aggressive. A good early UU is more important than the aggressive trait.

2. If you feel it necessary, regenerate the map until it looks like a sweet start.
Very bad idea. In fact, bad starting spots are more conductive to warmongering, because then you have to attack in order to conquer decent land.

3. If you start with mining then go for Bronze working as soon as practical
Even if you don't start with mining, you should always research mining first and bronze working second.

5. Build at least 3 units for every improvement you want to build.
Very bad rule of thumb. Early, you should build nothing but units (except barracks). Later on, you shouldn't build so many or you'll go bankrupt on all the maintenance costs.

6. Agressive civs get a free combat 1 promo to all melee units, build a cheap barracks and get a level 3 unit right off the bat!
Actually, you'll get a level 2 unit with combat 1, which is even better because it means fewer XP before your next promotion(s).

7. No seriously, build military until it numbers way more than you're used to!
(In a typical builder game I'll have 2-3 units for every city, you need to at least double that!)
Not necessarily. You just need to use them properly and make the right kinds of units with the right kind of promotions.

8. When you have enough units to take an enemy city in 1 turn (I've found a 2:1 ratio of axemen/swords to archers works well), move your units to the edge of their borders then declare war.
First of all, you don't have to wait until you can take a city before you declare war. Sometimes just sending an opponent in war mode is already a win and you don't even have to fight.
Second, if you intend to take cities, you should bring enough stuff to conquer more than one. Ideally, you want to take all their cities quickly, but that's not always possible.

10. Resist the lovely shiny libraries for now.
You should still build at least one as soon as you get writing, otherwise you'll fall way behind in tech and we all know that swordsmen are no match for longbowmen.

11. If you simply must found a religion then go for Confucianism cos the courthouses are way more useful to you than the religion itself.
Agreed. In fact, it's usually better not to found a religion at all and concentrate on other techs.

13. If it goes pear shaped then pay for peace and rebuild your military then bulid the improvements!
You're doing something wrong if you need to pay for peace. The opponent should be the one paying.

You forgot the most important point of all to learn the warmongering way :
Quit playing on Noble and try Emperor or above! You'll soon find out that without early military expansion, you can't win!

yeah i was a builder too until i started reading advice from the above people and some others, now i feel a sense of shame if i don't have my continent/island to myself by the time catapults come up.

here's my advice:

take the romans, do a small dual map and go bw, wheel, iw with a baracks in play then make about 6 praetorians and go skullthump the other guy, you'll get the picture

and if you don't take the romans regular swordsmen will do

What's so bad about attacking across a river?

The defending units get a big defensive bonus (look at the odds display when mousing over)

Fetch said:

What's so bad about attacking across a river?

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-25% attack.

isn't also -50% from the sea?

Yes, amphib attack (from boats) is -50%.

The trouble with "builderholics" is they tend to want to build every building in every city.

In the early game your commerce cities need libraries (definitely) and markets (probably), and your production cities need barracks (obviously!).

"10. Resist the lovely shiny libraries for now."
This comment suggests to me that you don't specialise your cities enough. Let your commerce cities build their libraries asap, let your production cities build the troops.

I was also going to say something else which was probably mind blowingly brilliant...but I seem to have forgotten what it was!!! I'll get back to you! lol

Rast said:

3) No matter what you start with beeline for BW, then Pottery, then Alphabet, then Code of Laws/Monarchy. BW lets you chop rush, which gives you a huge leg up on the AI early on.

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Why Alphabet?

Also - how are you sequencing your cities? Production sites before commerce sites? Does it matter?

Andrei_V said:

-25% attack.

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Just in case some of you didn't know, it's +25% strength for the defender when attacked across a river - not -25% strength to the attacker.

Same with amphibious assaults so its +50% defense - not -50% attack.

For example, a strength 5 unit attacking a strength 4 unit across a river will have 50:50 odds of winning (assuming no promotions or other modifiers like first strikes).

I think Combat promotions are the only battle modifiers that affect the attacker. All others, like cover and shock promotions, and forest or hill bonuses etc. change the defending unit's strength.

VoiceOfUnreason said:

Why Alphabet?

Also - how are you sequencing your cities? Production sites before commerce sites? Does it matter?

Click to expand...

Of course I don't know his point of view, but Alphabet is very useful if you make the habbit of leaving one city to the opponent (usually not the capitol) and making a temporary peace with some early techs in return. This is usually for me the only way to get my beloved Monasteries (for the later game) without loss of time from my even more beloved Axeman battles and tech money line. Also, the sooner you get it the sooner you become to catch-up with AI in higher levels (through trading).

One thing that is usually overlooked: the early "money tech line" includes, of course, Currency and COL, but also includes Sailing (if you have access to the sea, your money income becomes much better with this tech) and Iron Working-Calendar (usually the best "money-happiness" resources are in the jungle, and after grabbing the land you want to exploit it as soon as possible).

PieceOfMind said:

Just in case some of you didn't know, it's +25% strength for the defender when attacked across a river - not -25% strength to the attacker.

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Yeah, you are right, it seems like. Thanks for the correction.

Thanks again for feedback, much appreciated.

I tried a game with the Romans last night but had no iron so got my ass severely whooped. Was fun trying though....

I'm going to work my way through every Civ before moving up a level. Sorely tempted to turn off Space victory too... I'm beginning to think of it as the chicken's way out.... you'll make a warmonger of me yet

PublicEnemy said:

The trouble with "builderholics" is they tend to want to build every building in every city.

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This is exactly how I used to play Civ II, Early expansion taking out any AI on continent then build build build, I used to get wound up about not having any time to build the lot in the late captured AI cities. Sometimes, I would leave kill off all AI except one city and continue my building.

I'm trying hard with Civ IV to play differently, and have achieved an early conquest victory at noble, playing Rome, heading stright for Iron then pumping out praetorians. It's a completely different style of play, which I still need to work on, but it's fun for a change.

I haven't turned off any victory conditions and am yet to have a space race victory, so far tactics have been directed elsewhere, but I suppose eventually I'll go for SS.

ferenginar said:

I'm trying hard with Civ IV to play differently, and have achieved an early conquest victory at noble, playing Rome, heading stright for Iron then pumping out praetorians. It's a completely different style of play, which I still need to work on, but it's fun for a change.

I haven't turned off any victory conditions and am yet to have a space race victory, so far tactics have been directed elsewhere, but I suppose eventually I'll go for SS.

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Yeah me too. I've gotten hooked on the early warmongering and usually try to slaughter the enemy as quickly as possible. If the remaining civs are on another island thats when my games go long into the gunpowder age and even into the modern war game era.

Crighton said:

Yeah me too. I've gotten hooked on the early warmongering and usually try to slaughter the enemy as quickly as possible. If the remaining civs are on another island thats when my games go long into the gunpowder age and even into the modern war game era.

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These days I've taken to declaring war on a neighbour very early - often before Iron Working. I do this to
1) steal a worker
2) put the enemy in war mode and so he/she won't send out workers to improve land that's anywhere near a military unit of mine
3) let them send unit after unit to suicide against my units, allowing me to level up to 10xp in many cases

Then, as soon as I get construction (I'm still at war), I'll just build several cats and then go and wipe them out entirely, making sure to take the capital especially. If some of the cities are badly placed, just bring settlers along and raze-then-build in a better spot. Make sure to do this before any AIs get to that spot though.

The AI's biggest weakness is his inability to manage wars effectively. One of the human player's biggest strengths is to manage wars more efficiently. The two go hand in hand.