How quickly do barbarian cities grow?

The barbarians just built a city right where I planned to build my 3rd city.

Actually that's a good thing, because it saves me a settler. However, obviously I have to wait until barb city grows to pop 2, otherwise it will be auto-razed. It's been quite a few turns, though, and the city hasn't grown yet.

How long does it usually take for barb cities to grown from pop 1 to pop 2?

i am guessing they will focus on production tiles (soldiers), but when it has good food sources i think you can see it like just a normal AI controlled city and it will grow most of the times with 2F/turn. That's what i think, haven't tested it though. I just park over 1 axe to beat any wanderers and then take it when it has size 2.

I believe they grow considerably more slowly than 'normal' AI cities since the barbarians focus on building military units rather than infrastructure.

I've noticed that they will almost always garrison two units (archers in the early game), and then send out subsequent units to go pillaging, usually on their own. Posting a defensive unit (e.g. an archer) on a good defensive tile (forest/hills ideally) to keep an eye on them is a good idea and gets you promotions, since the barbarians usually attack units in their way on sight.

In one game I played, there were two barbarian cities close together and I was focusing on a war on the side of my civ so I didn't get round to sorting them out. In that time they actually built improvements, roads and a trade network! Nice when I eventually kicked them out.

I've heard rumours that barbarian cities can even adopt religions - any truth in this?

StrideCollosus said:

I've heard rumours that barbarian cities can even adopt religions - any truth in this?

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I've seen it many times. Mostly in barb cities that I have been forced to ignore for a while due to mor pressing military needs, but from time to time in relatively new ones as well.

I have even seen screenshots of barbarian cities that build WONDERS OF THE WORLD. They do it all man. Well...I don't think the research, but I'm pretty sure they can get religions. Strange, since you would think all their trade-networks would be cut off due to perma-war. I vaguely remember a barb city converting to my religion once though.

Someone on this board once posted a screenshot of a barbarian holy city. I guess it can happen if you neglect them long enough.

patmcq said:

Someone on this board once posted a screenshot of a barbarian holy city. I guess it can happen if you neglect them long enough.

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lol that's funny (and a tasty bonus), but building Wonders seems outrages...

Hans Lemurson said:

I have even seen screenshots of barbarian cities that build WONDERS OF THE WORLD. They do it all man. Well...I don't think the research, but I'm pretty sure they can get religions. Strange, since you would think all their trade-networks would be cut off due to perma-war. I vaguely remember a barb city converting to my religion once though.

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If they don't research, how do they get improved units like axemen and archers?

If you try playing on a Terra map you will see some very large and well developed Barbarian cities when you reach the New World continent. Big road networks, improvements on all the surrounding tiles, defended by Grenadiers and such.

Hans Lemurson said:

I have even seen screenshots of barbarian cities that build WONDERS OF THE WORLD. They do it all man. Well...I don't think the research, but I'm pretty sure they can get religions. Strange, since you would think all their trade-networks would be cut off due to perma-war. I vaguely remember a barb city converting to my religion once though.

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The barbarian state is modelled as an extra AI civilization with a few special rules (such as units spawning randomly out of nowhere, and extra-stupid tactical AI). It does research, and can found religions (but this is pretty rare since they start out behind everyone else, so usually other civs get all the religions; if the barbs have a religion it's usually because they conquered a city where it existed). They don't trade with other civs, but do trade between their own cities, so once they have a religion it can spread.

I can personally attest to Barbs spreading religion. I founded a city (unescorted) and the next turn bang founded judaism, ironically in that new city. A dang barb comes up and snatches the city. I eventually sus him out and the holy city is mine again.

I further south and find another barb city (which also had judaism as its religion). Repeat this statement several times.

In the end, i was on the top left of an inland sea map, judaism started on the left middle, it went all the way south, the east and into several other civs BEFORE any other single city in my empire received judaism.

This is also how i learned that a holy city with 1 pop doesn't automatically get razed on being conquered.

Vynd said:

If you try playing on a Terra map you will see some very large and well developed Barbarian cities when you reach the New World continent. Big road networks, improvements on all the surrounding tiles, defended by Grenadiers and such.

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Grenadiers ? Wow that means you arrived much too late. Usually they are still on the warrior/archer combo, with roads and improvements.
It's allways a fun adventure to send an explorer with you an early caravel, then send 3 macemen with the first Galleon. The explorer spots the cities and with only 3 units you can literally invade the entire continent.

I noticed that when the barbs build a city, they almost completely stop wandering from FOW areas. This usually a clear signal to me to stop pumping units and focus on expansion, city and tile improvements, and such.

An occasional archer may sometimes come out of the city, but it is easy to handle, just fortify an archer or an axeman somewhere nearby. Otherwise I'd just go around this barb city, grabbing all the land I can. And after a while, when I have no more land to expand, I'd capture the city.

By that time it is usually size 4 or 5, and protected by 4 archers, with a worker inside, and a few improved tiles around. Difficulty Emperor and Inmortal.

Of course, if there is an AI nearby, you'll probably need to capture the city ASAP, but in this case you don't have too many wandering barbs anyway.

patmcq said:

Someone on this board once posted a screenshot of a barbarian holy city. I guess it can happen if you neglect them long enough.

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That was me.

I'm kind of a barb expert.

Here's how I gain knowledge. I start a game on terra, and plant a spy or two in the new world (because thats where the barbs will grow into cities

You must know that if you park an axemen on a hill so that it can see and been seen by the barb city, that barb city will ONLY produce military units (okay, 90% of the time) but will never build a worker and improve its territory.

Barbs do research. You can see it when you spy on a city of theirs.

Barbs will spread religion if it spreads to them by building temples, monasteries, and CATHEDRALS. If a barb captures a holy city, they will produce missionaries, build a shrine, etc...

Barbs typically have 2-3 specialists in each city. They do get great barbs. They use them (aside from great profits) to research techs. I've yet to see a barb great scientist build an academy. They tend to focus on engineers and artists. They will never have a great merchant.

barb cities will never build up a stack of doom and attack. Once they hit their defensive unit limit (3) they will send units out 1 at a time. They will only attack a city if their unit is the/ or a counter to the city's defender. (after the axemen era where there are actually counters)

Barb cities develop a trade network and will adopt mercantilism.

don't they get techs randomly to keep up a little with the real civs? nice experiment btw.

Crighton said:

I can personally attest to Barbs spreading religion. I founded a city (unescorted) and the next turn bang founded judaism, ironically in that new city. A dang barb comes up and snatches the city. I eventually sus him out and the holy city is mine again.

I further south and find another barb city (which also had judaism as its religion). Repeat this statement several times.

In the end, i was on the top left of an inland sea map, judaism started on the left middle, it went all the way south, the east and into several other civs BEFORE any other single city in my empire received judaism.

This is also how i learned that a holy city with 1 pop doesn't automatically get razed on being conquered.

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Hehe, nope. I have DEFINATELY been forced to raze a size one holy city when it was founded by toku. However, I think I can explain what happened. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.

I was in a war where there was one particular city that I wanted for its position, so I attacked it once it hit size 2. This brought it down to size 1. Now about 5 turns later, it had been given a culture bomb so it had a decent amount of my culture and was out of revolt. Now, guess what happened: my enemy(I think it was Toku again) attacks with a SoD, and I didn't have an equally insane defense force. The city fell, and was RECAPTURED by Toku. Note that it had NOT gained a population point. So I decided to take it back, and still the city wasn't forced to be razed.

From this war(and others like it) I have come to the theory that if a city is taken by a previous owner, then it does not lose a population point. I don't know for sure however.

Anybody have any solid info on this?

voek said:

don't they get techs randomly to keep up a little with the real civs? nice experiment btw.

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Yes, when the civs of the world hit a new era (I do not know what the cutoff is, but I think 50% is fair and close) the barbs jump an era and learn ALL techs from the previous era.

However, during the interim, they do research current era techs, so they may learn 2 or so before the next era leap.

KillerCardinal said:

Hehe, nope. I have DEFINATELY been forced to raze a size one holy city when it was founded by toku. However, I think I can explain what happened. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.

I was in a war where there was one particular city that I wanted for its position, so I attacked it once it hit size 2. This brought it down to size 1. Now about 5 turns later, it had been given a culture bomb so it had a decent amount of my culture and was out of revolt. Now, guess what happened: my enemy(I think it was Toku again) attacks with a SoD, and I didn't have an equally insane defense force. The city fell, and was RECAPTURED by Toku. Note that it had NOT gained a population point. So I decided to take it back, and still the city wasn't forced to be razed.

From this war(and others like it) I have come to the theory that if a city is taken by a previous owner, then it does not lose a population point. I don't know for sure however.

Anybody have any solid info on this?

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You did not have to raise it because it had not gotten out of resistance yet, and was your city originally. There is a buffer of time where your size 2 (now size one after being captured) can be recaptured by you. Just do it before resistance stops

Nice thread--I just started playing Terra and was shocked to find barb cities on the new world nearly as developed as some AI civs. I had Napolean, Montezuma, and Tokugawa and between the three of them and me there were so many wars on the old world that I think the barb cities were better than some of Monte's. It's not so ridiculous when you realize barbs don't war with other barbs.

Basically I think that the minute a barb city sees any player or AI civs ts basically starts pumping out units and forgets growth. But if they don't (as on Terra's new world) they grow; they just tend to be behind because they don't start with a settler or and I don't believe they get the tech discounts the AI civs do on higher difficulties.

So, this means I can look forward to preplacing some barbarian cities in my pseudo-real world map... fun...