Small map - Should Science a GPF be combined?

Should you combine your GPF and Science centers ever? Is there a benifit of doing so?

I almost always combine the two. Oxford and National Epic make for a good national wonder combination, in my opinion, in a city that can support a lot of science specialists. A bunch of science specialists, National Epic, and Oxford makes a dandy combination...lots of beakers, and it spawns buttloads of Great Scientists. The only disadvantage (if it is one) is that this strategy makes it hard to get a great person other than a scientist.

I generally use the first great scientist to build the academy here, then the rest join up in the city as super-specialists. There is another thread about the science city somewhere in this forum...

Yeah, use that tactic all of the time with Elisabeth = +100% GPP (from her trait), +100% National Epic, +100% Pacifism=
To bad I built the Great liberary in stead of the Parthenon (+50%)

My GP Factory is typically a city that is focussed on food production to allow a maximum number of specialists. So the terrain improvements tend to be all farms. The city contains the National Epic for double the GPP production and the Globe Theater to combat any happiness problems that this large city is bound to have.

My Science city is typically a city focussed on commerce production. So the terrain improvements tend to be all cottages. The city contains Oxfords University to increase the science output.

I think that it is difficult to combine both as they have very different terrain improvements and different small wonders (you can only have two small wonders in a city). Exceptions can arise and your Great Person city can be a good science center. But it is probably not the best science center that is possible in your country.

Don't overrate the effect of Great Wonders like the Great Library on science output (good for Great Scientists though) of your Science city. It gives you 6 science. That's about the same commerce output as town on a river in the early game (and less than a town on a river in the late game). Nice to have in your science city in the early game, but not very noticeable in the late game.

Your GPF should be reconfigurable, usually with caste system. You want GPs of different types later to give you golden ages.

Globe Theatre makes for a better synergy with the National Epic than Oxford. That building also comes waaay earlier.

Oxford seems to me to be made for being in the same city with Wall Street - but I usually build it in a city with cottages. If you are playing the other way (farms and specialists only) then it could have a point to go for National Epic+Oxford.

Roland Johansen is absolutly correct.

Build National Epic in a city where many tiles produce 3 or more food! That are improved health-ressources, grassland-farms, oasis and farmed Flood Plains. After biology also farmed plains.

The Oxford should go into a high-commerce-city. Lots of towns.

I often combine the GPF with the Globe Theater, so I can draft many soldiers while running Nationhood and returning fast to the maximum population.

@atreas:
The Wall-Street should go in a high-wealth-city, which is often in the late game not a high-commerce-city.

@katank:
How often do you use GPs for golden ages? I never do that

Oxford and Wall Street in the same city? Never. What a waste. If your slider is set to high science, Wall Street is wasted...vice versa if you set your slider for a higher gold output. Oxford can go into a general high-commerce city, as long as you maintain a high science rate...but then if you are going to have a high science rate, Wall Street should go into a city with a lucrative shrine and/or where you can have a large number of merchant specialists to take advantage of it...because even in a high commerce city, Wall Street means little if your science slider is always at 90%.

Good arguments have been made about wanting to be able to adjust your specialists to get a specific great person...I did mention that the combined Science/GPF City did have the disadvantage of limiting your types of GP to scientists. A significant limitation...and a fair argument. And the Globe Theater with National Epic combination is indeed a solid strategy...hard to argue against it.

However, I like to combine science and GPF for the simple reason that I get 'double' benefit from the specialists...a bunch of science specialists leverage the benefit of Oxford AND the National Epic. Then the rest of the cities can focus on cottages, and general commerce. If you wanted great merchants, you could use a similar strat placing Wall Street and National Epic together in a high-food city (preferably one with a lucrative shrine), and run a bunch of merchant specialists. Then Oxford could go into a generally high-commerce city.

Maybe the discussion should be turned around...take your great person farm, with the specialists, and decide if you want scientists or merchants. Then place the appropriate national wonder (Oxford for scientists, WS for merchants) along with National Epic to leverage your specialists better. Get more from your specialists...you need appropriate specialists to take full advantage of your Oxford and WS national wonders. And don't dismiss appropriate super-specialists in combination with these national wonders, either.

Hey...my 100th post!

The problem with this is that scientists generate less science than fully developed cottages. A scientist generates 3 science (6 with representation). A town generates 7 commerce and 1 hammer.

Now the difference between an output of 6 and 7 is not that big but there are some problems with the scientists.
1) a city can have 20 towns in its city radius. The number of scientists are far more limited. In most cities 4 is the maximum, but some small and large wonders can raise it a bit further, but nowhere near the 20 towns.
2) Every scientist needs a farmer to feed him/her. The problem with this is that to support a large number of scientists, the city has to be very large and then you'll get health and happiness problems. Before biology, you need two farmers to feed a scientist. When you need two farmers, then it is really inefficient as you could also have had two towns.
3) A city with towns still has a decent production and the universal suffrage civic also allows cashrushing which is insanely overpowered in this game.

There is a window of opportunity where scientists with the representation bonus are good. It takes a while to get the cottages to towns and during that period, scientists with the representation bonus are very good compared to the towns. But if you wait to research the representation civic, then the cottages will have matured to towns. You need the pyramids to get an early representation civic which is comparable to cottages for research at the start of the game. But the cottages will at some point again be better for research.

Roland...you are correct on everything you said. I'm not gonna disagree with you. Yes, I am assuming representation...so each scientist is good for six beakers. But in order for the cottage/town to be better, you are assuming a no-less-than 90% science rate. At 80% (80% of 7 commerce is 5.6 beakers), the science specialist becomes a stronger researcher (with representation, anyway). And specialists and cottages/towns are not entirely mutually exclusive. A coastal city with seafood resources and another food resource can support several scientists, and you can still have some cottages/towns in the city radius.

The original topic was on combining the great person farm with science city...and I am making the argument that such a strategy can be very good. It leverages your specialists in two ways, instead of just one (solely for great person points). Identify your GP farm first. Lots of specialists, and the National Epic. Now take it the next step. As long as you are setting a bunch of specialists for your GP Farm, make those specialists scientists, and add Oxford, an Academy, and the science improvements*. You now have a GPF and a Science City that uses the science specialists for two purposes, enhanced by your national wonders. And this science city is not as dependent on your science slider. You can drop your science rate for a while, and with a science city developed this way, you can still research at a high rate. The downside is that you do lose flexibility in great person points...you want to keep your specialists as scientists under this strategy. But I would argue that there is nothing wrong with constantly getting Great Scientists.

The question gets to be a tradeoff...you do indeed give up an extra commerce by going with specialists instead of more cottages/towns, but in exchange you can gain the great person points. And by popping Great Scientists at a high rate, you can use them to make up for that lost commerce/science over time by joining them up as super-specialists or directly researching techs.

*An alternative would be to make the specialists merchants, and add Wall Street (instead of Oxford) and the money improvements (market, grocer, bank)...this can be particularly good if you can get this in a city with a lucrative shrine. This will generate good gold, even while running a high science rate.

Roland Johansen said:

My GP Factory is typically a city that is focussed on food production to allow a maximum number of specialists. So the terrain improvements tend to be all farms. The city contains the National Epic for double the GPP production and the Globe Theater to combat any happiness problems that this large city is bound to have.

My Science city is typically a city focussed on commerce production. So the terrain improvements tend to be all cottages. The city contains Oxfords University to increase the science output.

I think that it is difficult to combine both as they have very different terrain improvements and different small wonders (you can only have two small wonders in a city). Exceptions can arise and your Great Person city can be a good science center. But it is probably not the best science center that is possible in your country.

Don't overrate the effect of Great Wonders like the Great Library on science output (good for Great Scientists though) of your Science city. It gives you 6 science. That's about the same commerce output as town on a river in the early game (and less than a town on a river in the late game). Nice to have in your science city in the early game, but not very noticeable in the late game.

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I agree with Roland that having separate science city and
GPF is an optimal strategy, and that is more noticeable in the late game but there are situation were it's hard to build both like in small map that are the subject of this thread.
Oxford university can require a lot of time to build too because you must built library and university in at least 6 city for a standard map before.

So in a Prince level game last week i've tried to play a kind of combined GPF - commerce building there a library, The Great Library and Heroic epic.
I've just put inside a couple of scientist specialist so i don't have to switch to
caste system, then i used my first great scientist for the academy, the second one as embedded great scientist and i cashed the others for tech (around 1500 beckers each).
Even if that is a sub-optimal strategy i think is a good option for pre-oxford science production, and so i finally get a diplomatic win around 1800 AD.
I'm sure there are better way to manage this city but i feel that a mix of cottage and science specialist must anyway been used so i send a screenshot of the city screen waiting for further advice.

Just a couple notes. You want NATIONAL Epic there, not Heroic Epic.

Ideally, for a GPF city, you want more food resources to support more specialists.

A higher science rate (it looks like you are at 50%) would help your research given your high commerce in this city.

This is obviously a good city, given the level of commerce and hammers...as a good capitol should be. But it looks like a city in search of an identity. It has good commerce, but you're trying to run specialists.

My advice here would be to do as Roland has outlined above...focus on commerce here, work to get Oxford in this city and get your science rate up, and this could be a very good science city based on high commerce. Find another city site with lots of food resources to set up your GPF.

While this is certainly a good city, it is not situated well to be a specialist-focused (Great Person Farm) city. I see the potential here for a high-production city. Finish Heroic Epic, build West Point, and crank out military units here. And soak up the commerce as a bonus (build the appropriate improvements to take advantage of commerce).

Just my two cents. I'm confident that others will have other opinions...take them all into account.

Jarrod32 said:

Just a couple notes. You want NATIONAL Epic there, not Heroic Epic.

Ideally, for a GPF city, you want more food resources to support more specialists.

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thank you for your advice, actually i have built Heroic Epic in that city but a consistent strategy would be to build NATIONAL Epic.