Opinion poll: what to do about the Mongolian settler

This is a very simple opinion poll. It is non-binding according to our CoL. Its mainly for me and other officials to see just what do our citizens think about the Mongolian seetler south of our borders.

Assumptions and facts: We have not seen any units other than archers. Mongolia could have horses, we about 4 turns we will find out. I feel we can stop any offensive threat from Mongolia..but it might be costly in terms of units. Attacking the settler right now would probably lose 1 axman but the second ax would finish the job. We do not have enough forces to capture the Mongolian capitol. IF we allow the city to be built, we will cut all roads in neutral territory to stop the iron resource from getting to other Mongolian cities.

I apologize for the poor wording in number 3..only allowed 100 charactes. It is basically the longest wait time to war. With us basically allowing Mongolia to fully develop a city for us and then we attack when we believe we have enough units to eliminate Mongolia.

robboo said:

This is a very simple opinion poll. It is non-binding according to our CoL. Its mainly for me and other officials to see just what do our citizens think about the Mongolian seetler south of our borders.

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I don't see how this can be a non-binding opinion poll. What's the point? So an elected offial can do something other than what we vote on here or discussed elsewhere? According to our constitution one form of decision making is constituency - citizens expressing themselves in public discussions. Once we discuss something and reach a consensus AND then an opinion poll is floated AND the result of the opinion poll agrees with the earlier consensus then the official should be following that opinion poll - in other words the *opinion* poll is binding. If on the other hand, the discussion does not provide a consensus then a poll is needed to determine what we want to do as a group. Such a poll should be binding.

Opinion polls should be reserved for things far down the road that don't require an immediate decision on our part. An example of a proper opinion poll would be the question: If we you to war with Mongolia what do you think our goals should be? The options would range from totally conquering them to just fighting a defensive war to keep them out of certain open territory. Such opinion polls should be used to guide us towards large goals that we set for ourselves.

Opinion polls should not be used as an out for officials to usurp the decision making process, nor should they be used to allow us citizens to avoid making difficult choices when we do not all agree on a given course of action.

The poll is about something that will happen during the next game play session. Either this should be recognized as an official binding referendum or it should be closed and a proper referendum started. If no referendum is started I guess we'll do a citizen's initiative on this.

At this point I would like to commend robboo for his work. My comments in this post should not be taken as criticism of robboo.

If it's not binding, I don't really care what we do ...

-- Ravensfire

OK..the reason I put it as non binding is as follows. If the majority say kill him now or if they say wait will determine the next poll. I am trying to get a feel for our citizens and since only about 10 people joined in the discussion and neither of the other Tri chimed in, i figure a poll might get their attention.

Lets say that in the game we see that the settler does not settle any where near the iron..( over 3 squares away)..still want me to whack him? Or if he turns back..want me to whack him? You make it binding then I have to go whack him.

Remember you are talking about 2 offices that a binding poll would effect..SoW and SoS. I am just trying to see what the general feeling is for planning by me. More than likely we will stop after 4 turns or once we see where the setttler is going or if they have horses. Then we can have a binding poll. We (really I) was probably a little premature in stopping the last turnchat. We still need more info to make a decision.

Does that satisfy both donsig and ravensfire as to why I made it an opinion poll only? Donsig..I am approaching this as your example of long term goals. I am tryign to see if our citizens want the worker now or if they prefer to wait. In addition, I would NEVER go against our citizens..that s good way to never get elected again.

I voted to stalk the settler and kill it onces it reaches a tile without a defensive bonus, mainly because I cannot believe that the Mongolians won't make a grab for the iron. I figure that a short defensive war now is better than risking them getting the iron. However, if for some mad reason the Mongolians wander passed the iron then I don't think that we should be so quick to provoke a war.

Also..I forgot this earlier...

I whole heartedly believe he will settle either 1 or 2 tiles from the iron( 3 or 4 turns from that area). And we will stop the TC before we attack for a binding poll. I believe that in 3 turns we will be able to see if he has horses and where the settler is going.

My main reason for this is if I need to move troops south to pre-position for a defensive war or if I can wait. Those 3 turns give me a head start before the binding poll comes into play.

I promise..we will have a binding poll for this since it is very important.

Also anyone can start a binding poll, so if you feel its needed before the next TC then please post one.

No Donsig, your wrong. This is right to be an opinion poll. The opinion poll is ment to be used to see what the citizenry wants, but at the same time keep our elected officials options open. Good job Robboo on your correct use of polls!

Also as Censor, i give my Censorial stamp of approval to this non-binding opinion poll

Thanks Swis..I am glad I understand the CoL correctly.

Hmm, mayhap I should use my powers as a Citizen to restate this as an Initiative.

Generally, use discussions to gauge opinion, and polls to actually make decisions. It looks here like you're trying to avoid the citizens pushing you in a direction that you don't want to go.

If anything, the two offices affected should be running a joint discussion/poll on this. I see a possible discussion on this (Fight or Wait), but no link to this poll? Regardless of your motives, your actions are quite questionable. It strongly appears you are trying to duck a binding action being determined by the citizens.

-- Ravensfire

As long as Mongolia doesn't have copper or iron, our military will be superior to theirs. It would be better to fight a war to protect the advantage while we have it, rather than letting them catch up to us with axemen and swordsmen. We must stop them from getting iron, no matter what the cost.

ravensfire said:

Hmm, mayhap I should use my powers as a Citizen to restate this as an Initiative.

Generally, use discussions to gauge opinion, and polls to actually make decisions. It looks here like you're trying to avoid the citizens pushing you in a direction that you don't want to go.

If anything, the two offices affected should be running a joint discussion/poll on this. I see a possible discussion on this (Fight or Wait), but no link to this poll? Regardless of your motives, your actions are quite questionable. It strongly appears you are trying to duck a binding action being determined by the citizens.

-- Ravensfire

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Do what you think is best.

Maybe I should not have voted in the poll since it appears my opinion will be used against me. I still feel we should wait and that is my opinion as SoW..I believe I can have an opinion in this can I not?

However..your opinion has not been declared..instead you took the easy way out by not going on record with yours. Easy to change your mind or follow the majority that way or not be held responsible for anything. I will follow the will of the people. Like I stated above, I think we will stop the TC in 3 or 4 turns once we know whats happening.

If you want to have an Initiative. I ask that you word it in such a way to be very specific for my actions. In other words if you state " attack if they approach iron" that is not specific enough..since in theory he already is approaching iron. In additon, I dont have the man power right now to kill the archer without another ax--which is at minimum 2 turns from being in position. Want me to attack right now? Make it clear so I will follow your initiative to do exactly what you want..

/its an oversight on my part not to have a link in the discussion thread..i will fix that now.

This situation is fluid. Making a static decision, at this point, by the citizens may not be in the long term interests of our country.

I will go on record as saying we stand to gain more by waiting and having the Mongolians do the work for us. The moment they are nearing completion of a mine (IE recognized through a warrior spy) is our signal to strike with alacrity and force.

robboo - I didn't look at, nor do I worry about what your opinion is.

I didn't bother to state my opinion because this poll doesn't matter, because that's how you want the poll.

As you noted (and as I commented on), this does involve two areas. I haven't seen anything that would indicate you reaching out to Chieftess in her official thread about this matter and create a joint discussion and poll on this.

I'm one of the last people who'll post an Initiative over a matter such as this, so long as the relevant leaders are actively working towards a decision. I don't see this happening here. I certainly hope to see a binding, official poll at least 48 hours before the next turn chat so that we, as citizens, can actively and officially provide our input in a manner that cannot be tossed aside and ignored at whim.

THAT'S what I'm irked about - there is no desire that I can see to seek, in an official manner, the desires of the citizens here.

-- Ravensfire

I am not going to call for a binding poll/Initiative for a couple of reasons.

First..as an official I do not want to call a citizens poll, that is the citizens duty in my opinion. Second..We dont know enough yet to even write a good initiative. Third..Declaring war is not in my job description.

I am merely trying to judge what preparations my Department has to do. We can argue till we are blue, if you want a Citizens Initiative then you write one. The purpose of this is for me to judge what troops need to be where in the next 3 to 4 turns and when the Citizens want war is how I can determine that.

I have not contacted Chieftess yet because honestly...what do I know that I didnt know at the last turnchat where we decided to "take it to the forums"(her words..check the log). Also if you look at the log..I stated...I would start the discussion. If the next TC gets set before the end of this poll...I will request a Stop Play before the settler can even get close enough to settle. So why dont you relax a bit and at least wait till I make a statement or post instructions to the contrary of this polls outcome. Let the system work.

robboo said:

So why dont you relax a bit and at least wait till I make a statement or post instructions to the contrary of this polls outcome. Let the system work.

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When I see the system working for the citzens, not for the leader, I'll stop and relax. All I see now is a leader trying to avoid a binding poll and still ducking on the matter.

-- Ravensfire

Thanks for your opinion...its noted.

No offense, but it seems like your blind from that statement. Robboo is doing what is the best in this situation. He is getting the citiziens reccomedation as to how to tackle the issue in the future. He has stated that he will post a binding poll... WHEN THE TIME COMES. Your opinion does matter, but don't let me stop you from short changing yourself.

I would call you illiterate, but you read what you wanted out of his posts, and discarded the rest.

Swissempire said:

No offense, but it seems like your blind from that statement. Robboo is doing what is the best in this situation. He is getting the citiziens reccomedation as to how to tackle the issue in the future. He has stated that he will post a binding poll... WHEN THE TIME COMES. Your opinion does matter, but don't let me stop you from short changing yourself.

I would call you illiterate, but you read what you wanted out of his posts, and discarded the rest.

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Sorry - that was after he got called out. I'll believe the binding poll when I see one get posted.

I've giving 50/50 odds on it. As I said - at the 48 hours before the next game session, an initiave poll on this will go up if needed.

-- Ravensfire

Ravensfire--how is he ducking the matter? I don't think the situation is that clear cut. This is a developing matter and the circumstances on this turn could be significantly different within 3 turns. Why would we want to be bound to a decision if the settler heads to the pigs and our borders expand over the iron? I for one don't want to be bound to killing the settler if his intent is not iron. This is a gamebreaking decision IMO and something that should be carefully considered before being put to vote.

As far as talking to Chieftess I agree they should coordinate the decision...along with the president.

ravensfire said:

Sorry - that was after he got called out.

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Not really, it was actually in his first post that he was going to use this as a guiding opinion poll. He didn't go out and say that later he would post a binding poll, becuase that had no relevance to this until you and donsig started to question him. He then responded that in due time, which a majority of people who haved voiced there opinion think in the right way to do it it, he would post a binding poll. The facts are not complete, and a binding poll would do just that, put us in a bind since we don't know all the information

ravensfire said:

I've giving 50/50 odds on it. As I said - at the 48 hours before the next game session, an initiave poll on this will go up if needed.

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Why would it be needed. READ THE FREAKIN THREAD!!!