Science Discussion 3C: Taoism or Catapults

Science Discussion 3C: Taoism or Catapults
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Link to the Poll for this Topic

Drama will be finishing in the next TC, so we need to decide where we're going to go next. Originally the plan was to found Taoism, but another concern has been raised - our lack of catapults. So we need to re-evaluate our situation. Here are the two proposed plans:

Plan 1:
We continue heading for Taoism (by researching Meditation and then Philosophy). We've already spent a considerable amount of time in Drama to lead up to it, so we might as well utilize the time we've invested. Founding a religion means we will finally have one on our continent (since it doesn't look like our neighbors are going to found one anytime soon, and it could be a while before we hear from the other-worlders). It would help with our happiness problems, and also help us get all civs on our continent on our side. There's always the risk that someone could beat us to it, but I think any civs trying to found one would probably go for Theology first, as they already have the prerequisites for it and it takes less beakers. The biggest drawback is that Philosophy will take 62 turns to research, at the current rate.

Plan 2:
We head for Construction to get Catapults. It will take less time than Philosophy (44 turns at the current rate), and catapults are absolutely necessary if we want any offensive war to succeed. This path isn't as urgent as it was at the beginning of the last TC as Mongolia decided not to grab the iron near Abydos, but I still think it merits discussion.

Of course there are always other options. If you have an idea that was not proposed above, feel free to post it here. Otherwise, please state which plan you support and your reasoning. If you have any questions, please post them here as well.

I support Plan 1.

With a religion helping us bring other civilizations to our side, the need for catapults is greatly reduced. Granted, it could reduce the time it will take for an offensive war, but I believe non-offensive actions will reap greater rewards later.

Plan one: As you pointed out, we have already invested the time in it. Also, by converting Russia and Germany, we can gain allies who could possibly trade us construction. The worries about Mongolia would be partially alieved by the ability to have the backing of our brothers of the faith. Philosphy would be the best in the long run.

Here are a couple more options so we can be sure we've covered everything.

Sailing->Math->Calendar
Pro: lets us get +1 happy due to incense, lets Micalian's Gate build a lighthouse and work the coastal tiles for 2g per tile.. Also math is needed for construction and catapults.
Con: slows down the other things we might want to be priorities, though that is partially offset by the higher commerce yield

Meditation->Priesthood->Monarchy
Pro: if we switch to hereditary rule, we get +1 happy per garrison. we'll want more defenders anyway as soon as the others have ships. (else we make the mistake that the Who-1 SG did, not being prepared for an invasion)
Con: even further away from the other more strategic possibilities

Optics path
Pro: build caravel, find other continent
Con: would take an eternity to complete

Music path
Pro: get a great artist, build a frontier town, culture bomb and hope for some flips
Con: defending the culture bomb town

My opinion is that I'd really like to toss sailing in there sometime soon, so MG can build a lighthouse and make use of those 2g water tiles. When we get drama there may be some trades available.

I say we throw everything we have into Taoism. Let's get a religion, and then work on the other stuff.

71 turns for a religion no one can guaratee to get?

I think mathematics (17) is a better choice: After 17 turns you can decide to go for calendar (+27), currency(+31) or construction(+27). Two of three you get in less than 75 turns and have guaranteed benefits.

I prefer PLAN 1, but before doing Meditation and Philosophy I suggest research Sailnig first as we were unable to get it through trade. This way we can send a Galley to look for some close land and possibly another civilization! As well it will let Micalian's Gate to build a Lighthouse and grow a bit!
So breefly: Sailing - Meditation - Philosophy

So if we get sailing and build a boat to go off exploring, will that increase our chances of converting to someone else's religion? I was tempted to lean towards plan 1 now that the Mongol threat is no longer immediate but as RockMan pointed out, 71 turns is a long time when there's no guarantee we'll get the religion. I'd really like to know what it takes to convert in this game.

Also, DaveShack, how long will it take for the options you list? It seems hereditary rule gives us the happiness benefit we want from religion. But if getting there takes 100 turns then it doesn't help much.

It would help greatly if we had a list of techs we can research now and the amount of time it would take us to research them. Along with that some idea of what's going on with the slider would be useful.

First off..I think we need to define our goals for this game. If conquest or domination is our victory of choice, then we go get cats and get started. IF we want something else, then we have to fit our research to the goal victory condition.

It feels that sense we started we havent had a concise research path, its a bunch of mini-paths that dont seem to be connected. We seem to be indecisive and bouncing around a lot. Almost as if we have no feel for the game.

We need longer term planning past just this term or the next term as to what we want to do. Everything from which units to build, where to place cities and what research to follow stems from that.

Sailing first..is my only thought then pick a path to set up our goal victory condition.

One other thing I would like to point out...( Sigma we talked about this breifly in the TC)

We do not need Horse archers(horse back riding), right now That would stop us from building our UU.

War chariot is a 5/2 unit and cost 25 also immune to First Strikes,Doesn't receive defensive bonuses, Can withdraw from combat (20% chance)

Where as horse archers is a 6/2 unit and cost 50 also Immune to first strike, Doesn't receive defensive bonuses and +50% vs. Catapult.

I ask(Sec of War) that you consider putting in your instructions to not trade or research horseback riding just yet. We can build 2 of our UU for every one horse archer and just about handle everything except large stacks of catapults. We can always upgrade if we need to.

Robboo, I think that even for Conquest/Domination victory is now better to get the religion. It will help us to not to have more then one enemy on our continent at one time. The holy city will give us the LoS in our neighbour's cities as soon as we convert them. The holy building in the holy city will help us with our budget when we'll grow (army and city maintenance costs) which in case of Domination goal is inevitable. Well but this discussion should have its own thread.
For the research I repeat that I'm for the religion - plan 1. But in the same time think that Sailing doesn't take long time and it can give us advantage bigger then the delay on our path towards the religion, but yes, it is a bit risky ... it might mean that we ould lose the race for Philosophy as we don't know what's going on on the other continent(s) ... but me personaly I would take the risk ... others may have different opinion.

I also support plan 1 for the military, financial, and relations bonus that we should get with the founding of our own religion.

That 71 turns will decrease as our cities grow in population, and we build new cities.

I support plan 1 as having a religion and a holy city will make it easier for me to spy on the rest of the world.

I'd like to point out that at the beginning of the last TC, Philosophy was scheduled to take 81 turns (by itself). We've since completed a library, and I believe we also had population growth - those two things brought the number of turns to 62. As long as we keep expanding, it will finish earlier than the 62 turns.

What is our goal?
For the intermediate term, we have already chosen Plan 1 and I believe we shoud follow through on this goal.

Founding Taoism, pacifism and spreading the word. Though it will cost 800 beakers to finish philo we have no opportunity to delay IMO. BW's cottages should be coming to fruition and will help our research rate considerably. BW will need a theater to improve happiness and chops (in particular grass forests) and as blasphemous as this may sound whether to use the whip.
These should be discussed in all our city's plans.

IMO the military option will have to wait because it has certain requirements to be effective.
Along with our existing arsenal we would need catapults, courthouses and many more workers.

• Cats for siege
• Courts so we don't bankrupt the economy in conquest.
• Workers to road towards our enemy and chop for the courthouses.

To choose this path would require:
Math, construction and CoL = 950 beakers.

Sailing (100 beakers) and meditation (80 beakers) seem to be a trap we experienced researching IW. Our continent will research these techs and likely can be traded for.

If we follow plan 1 our whole attitude towards neighbors will have to change. Trades, civics, economics seem to require a more peaceful intermediate path.

I'd also join with the folks here suggesting option 1. I also agree with the folks saying it is time to have a big think about our long term strategy. If we can spread our religion to all of our neighbours that can postpone the need for war for a considerable time. We also need more cities and a stronger economy to boost the research rate to make sure we can get the religion.

I support plan 1 too. We are near to getting city #4. This will also decrease thee time needed to complete it.

basically what whomp said for me, though id have probably not argued it that well

It looks like we have a pretty good consensus, but just to be official I've opened a poll. You can find it HERE.