Gaaahhh...I am *not* too advanced!

Has anyone figured out the tech trading game?

Here's my recent scenario. Monarch, continents, normal/standard everything. I start on my own island and build it up nicely. Am first or one of the first (discovered Napoleon's caravel on my way to circumnavigation which I did achieve) to Optics. I am 2nd of 7 in GNP, but 6th of 7 in score. (Only Roosevelt who is getting ganged up on, is lower.)

With three caravels, I quickly meet the rest of the world and make the following trades. Before the colon is the tech I had, after is what I got for it:

1000AD w/Napoleon........Code of Laws : Mathematics
1010AD w/Napoleon........Civil Service : Currency, Construction
1010AD w/Saladin...........Code of Laws : Monarchy
1010AD w/Montezuma.....Civil Service : Construction, Monotheism, Horseback Riding
1020AD w/Saladin...........Civil Service : Feudalism

I researched Astronomy (which I didn't want to trade away) and Paper.

1240 AD Napoleon feels I am "becoming too advanced" (Pleased with me!)
1280AD w/ Mao...............Paper : Music
1280AD w/ Montezuma......Paper : War with Huayna
1280AD Saladin feels I am "becoming too advanced" ("Cautious" with me!)

What?!

In reviewing the forums here and at apolyton, I've come to understand that a few things apply to tech trading:

1) you only get a certain number of trades with the AIs, and all of them count together as a single group
2) once you start getting "too advanced", you might get another trade or two with them if you improve your relations
3) some leaders are more willing to trade than others, but soon you'll be getting the "too advanced" excuse from all of them

Are these correct? I got 9 techs and a war for my tech trading before I started to get cut off.

Did I trade too quickly?

Did I get too many 2-for-1 and 3-for-1 deals by being so far ahead?

Is the AI limited in number of trades or number of trades per era too?

I've also read that tech trading is the key to deity play. If so, I'd really like to understand it. Any insights or findings would be greatly appreciated!

1) you only get a certain number of trades with the AIs, and all of them count together as a single group

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This certainly isn't the whole story, and I'm not convinced this is true at all. AI's are reluctant to trade with someone who is overall more advanced than them, or is getting close, but there seems no specific restriction on number of trades.

3) some leaders are more willing to trade than others, but soon you'll be getting the "too advanced" excuse from all of them

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On the contrary I trade a lot, and I've only seen this excuse from maybe 6 of the leaders. Cyrus and Fredrick start giving it from about the middle ages even if you're 5 techs behind, but it's rare to see it from anyone else. I've done more trading than this with just about every other leader with no problems.

Did I trade too quickly?

Did I get too many 2-for-1 and 3-for-1 deals by being so far ahead?

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I'm not sure these have any impact, I think it's just your relative positions in the tech tree and the leader's personality that affects this.

Is the AI limited in number of trades or number of trades per era too?

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Like I say, I don't think this is the case for the human player, so no.

I've also read that tech trading is the key to deity play. If so, I'd really like to understand it. Any insights or findings would be greatly appreciated!

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Tech trading is certainly key at high levels if you're going to keep up, but you seem to have mostly got the hang of it. The only slight point I'd make is that you don't seem to be trading tech for gold? It's well worth selling obsolete tech to a backward civ for a chunk of gold, since it means you can always keep running at 100% science, and hence get the next tech to sell faster.

MrCynical said:

This certainly isn't the whole story, and I'm not convinced this is true at all. AI's are reluctant to trade with someone who is overall more advanced than them, or is getting close, but there seems no specific restriction on number of trades.

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Sirian has stated over at RBCiv that this is most certainly true. It was a very deliberate design decision that was extensively discussed during testing, from what he says. The details of how that number is determined aren't clear, but that there is a number of tech trades beyond which the AI will give you WFYABTA is not in question.

I played a game some time ago where at some point, I discovered a technology that I could trade with France and India. The other nations thought I was too advanced allthough in reality I was on par or less advanced then they were. After trading the technology with France, India suddenly felt I was too advanced. So this can even happen during a turn!

It's not such a bad thing to limit tech trading, but they could have named it something like: You're a freeloader. Research your own stuff!

Thanks for the thoughts.

Mr Cynical: The only reason I didn't go for gold was that the most any of the AIs had for trade was 40. I'll be interested to hear if the number of tech trades limit is true or not because (see response to Beamup)

Beamup: I read (or at least scanned) much of that thread too. That's the basis for my assumptions. It seemed to me that Sirian was very intentionally not giving out the exact number, but that it was a global number of tech trades that you could engage in.

The fact that different leaders at the same and different diplomatic standings with me have differing willingness to trade techs with me leads me to think that 1) your relations with them affect their willingness to trade techs, and 2) some leaders have a higher innate willingness to trade, so will trade for longer at diplo standings that others leaders will not trade at.

(Checked for crosspost and there's Roland)

Roland: I had exactly the same experience. Mao was willing to trade for Astronomy. Then I researched Paper. The next turn, he felt I was "too advanced". I don't think I traded anything to anyone between the time he was willing and the time he wasn't. And I like the "you're a freeloader" excuse. Maybe it could be "you're abusing your technological prowess, and we have all decided to hate you for it. We'll take your gold resource though...."

Well Sirian ought to know what he's talking about, but there still must be factors based on leader personality and relations, or they'd all cut out at the same time. I pressume is also scaled to take into account the number of civs on the map?

It seems strange to me that I haven't seen more of this, because I trade tech at every possible opportunity with anyone, but aside from with Frederick and Cyrus it's very unusual for me to see this.

MrCynical said:

Well Sirian ought to know what he's talking about, but there still must be factors based on leader personality and relations, or they'd all cut out at the same time. I pressume is also scaled to take into account the number of civs on the map?

It seems strange to me that I haven't seen more of this, because I trade tech at every possible opportunity with anyone, but aside from with Frederick and Cyrus it's very unusual for me to see this.

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I've once hit this limit with all over 6 civs in the game (I wiped one out). *All* of them were red-lined "We fear you are becoming too advanced". I was a few techs behind every one else but I had come back from a massive tech deficit (early wars) with lots and lots of trading and I had a massive GDP (which eventually led me to becoming the tech leader even with no one willing to trade). None of them were really my friends either.

Elizabeth would throw a trade to me every now and then though most of the time she was also "We fear that you are becoming too advanced".

It might have connections with the difficulty level too. I was playing an immortal level game at the time. I didn't notice it in an earlier game at noble level, but I wasn't paying as much attention to it then. What is the difficulty level with which you have experienced the more freely offered trades, MrCynical?

I also think that the AI tends to forget about the amount that you've traded after some time. Often, I am unable to make reasonable trades because "I'm too advanced" and then later in the game I can suddenly trade again. And the reason that I can trade again isn't linked to the relations or my technology level compared to them because they were similar (at least as far as I can see of course).

It might have connections with the difficulty level too. I was playing an immortal level game at the time. I didn't notice it in an earlier game at noble level, but I wasn't paying as much attention to it then. What is the difficulty level with which you have experienced the more freely offered trades, MrCynical?

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I'm playing at Emperor at the moment, and like I say it's unusual to see more than a couple of civs get this. From after alphabet in my last game just about every tech I researched was traded to at least one other civ, and usually to more. Frederick started giving "We fear you are becoming too advanced" fairly early, but it seems like he always does regardless of whether I trade with him or not. Two others gave that in the modern age for a couple of techs, but starting trading again right at the end. This is with 12 civs on the map.

MrCynical said:

I'm playing at Emperor at the moment, and like I say it's unusual to see more than a couple of civs get this. From after alphabet in my last game just about every tech I researched was traded to at least one other civ, and usually to more. Frederick started giving "We fear you are becoming too advanced" fairly early, but it seems like he always does regardless of whether I trade with him or not. Two others gave that in the modern age for a couple of techs, but starting trading again right at the end. This is with 12 civs on the map.

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I can't imagine that the difference between emperor and immortal is that big, so that's not it (I think). And I can remember that in the emperor game that I played before the immortal game, I also ran into the 'you're becoming too advanced'. However you say that you've traded your technology to them. The comment made in this thread is not about trading a technology for money but about getting a technology from trading: if you obtain a sufficient number of technologies from trading then you'll see the complaint 'you're becoming too advanced'. Could that be the difference that we're seeing?

Oh, and you're right that some civilizations will give this complaint early while others trade with you for a long time. There's an actual modifier in the leader xml files that explains that behaviour.

MrCynical said:

Well Sirian ought to know what he's talking about, but there still must be factors based on leader personality and relations, or they'd all cut out at the same time. I pressume is also scaled to take into account the number of civs on the map?

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Yes, personality and relations are certainly involved. Also your score ranking is considered - if you're in the lead the limit goes down. I'm pretty sure there are other factors that have been mentioned, but I can't recall them ATM.

No clue about any scaling with number of civs.

opensilo said:

It seemed to me that Sirian was very intentionally not giving out the exact number

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The impression I got was more that he didn't know the actual formula. Just what sorts of things were in it and why it was there.

I'm sure he knows the exact limits...he and the rest of the team designed them.

Beamup said:

The impression I got was more that he didn't know the actual formula. Just what sorts of things were in it and why it was there.

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Could be. There was too much negativity in that thread to make me want to read it again.

Yzman said:

I'm sure he knows the exact limits...he and the rest of the team designed them.

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That's my assumption too.

One of the things I really like about CIV is that there is fun on many levels. Balancing of short-term vs. long-term goals, completely different paths to victory (e.g. cultural vs. conquest), planning your city placement, planning your route through the tech tree, etc.

One of those is the challenge of figuring out how the game works. Since the tech trading game is so important, I'm interesting in figuring it out. I think I'll be taking note of my tech trades in games to come to see if I can figure out patterns. I guess with this game, I was most surprised about how quickly the "too advanced" complaint arose.