Ruff03 - AW Middle Ages

[ruff_hi]

I'm thinking of starting an always war SG set in the middle ages (maces, crossbows, knights, pikemen, etc). I would like all civs to be on equal footing regarding tech and the game outcome to come down to city placement, efficiency and tactics.

Any takers for this? Any suggestions about how we set this up (eg no tech advances). What happens to the balance of the game (eg commerce becomes much less important).

Roster
Ruff
Conroe
colony
Munterpipe
???

Alternate?
ChrTh

[ChrTh]

I'm up for it. I would make sure there are no middle-age UU civs involved (Chinese, Japanese).

[ruff_hi]

Good point. I also want to balance out the civ traits so that they are all equal (suggestions? aggression and culture?). I actually think we will need a mod for this.

[ChrTh]

What level are you thinking? Noble or Prince or ?? ... also, how far in the techs are we looking to advance? Will gunpowder be allowed? I would say Chemistry definitely not.

PS. ChrTh is an abbreviated version of my full name

[Conroe]

I wouldn't mind signing up for this one. Although, I'm not too sure about modding the game. I may need a bit of help with this ...

[GreyFox]

Lurker

Can you possibly all play as, say, Tonkugawa? Then, it doesn't matter if there is UU. Imagine ... 9 japanese daimyo fighting to be the ultimate shogun ...

[ruff_hi]

that is a possibility - the only problem is you get one japan saying "please stop trading with Japan" and you have no idea who he is talking about.

[Conroe]

Originally Posted by ruff_hi

Good point. I also want to balance out the civ traits so that they are all equal (suggestions? aggression and culture?). I actually think we will need a mod for this.

I've been playing around with this and I think I've gotten it. Turned out to be surprisingly easy. My first mod! It's nothing fancy, but I think it might meet the needs of this SG.

Basically, we can get rid of all of the techs beyond the middle ages, keeping only the ancient, classical, and medieval techs. I've also removed ALL unique units from the game, and removed ALL of the various leader traits. All civs will have the exact same potential. I haven't figured out how to change the AI personalities, yet, though. But, by disabling the space/culture/etc victory conditions and setting the AW flag, I wouldn't think it would matter.

Was this what you had in mind? Is there anything else we would want to modify? (religion, resource requirements, etc).

[ruff_hi]

Yes. I started a quick dummy game at the medieval level and it looked about right. I think we chop off techs after the music column - every civ starts with all these techs. This means that science (and thus) commerce becomes pointless. To get the balance right, we need to stop the civs researching and get them building military.

So, suggestion is ...

• remove research related buildings (libs)
• remove the ability to build cottages
• reduce commerce (say -1 on each tile)
• increase production (say +1 on each tile)

We cannot play on a ocean map - no ocean bound troop carriers in that age - but we could always move one of these units to a 'known' tech. The other thing I am thinking about is upping the cat power and changing it to a trebuchet (maybe str 7).

I'm not sure what to do about religion - leave it in, or take it out? I do want to remove all wonders so the AI doesn't waste time building them.

[colony]

This sounds like a great variant

I don't have a clue about modding the game, but I would be interested in playing.

Since there'd be either very little or no research done, how about making it a Monarch level game rather than Noble or Prince, as being conquered is effectively the only way to lose? I'd also turn on Aggressive AI to dissuade them from building too many buildings. I'd leave religion in, but take the great wonders out, but maybe leave the national ones in (Heroic Epic I'm mainly thinking of here)

[Conroe]

Originally Posted by ruff_hi

So, suggestion is ...

• remove research related buildings (libs)
• remove the ability to build cottages
• reduce commerce (say -1 on each tile)
• increase production (say +1 on each tile)

I've been running a couple of test games using the mod that I wrote and looking at the AI cities in WorldBuilder to see how they handle the variant. Everyone one of them has so far started by turning research off and accumulating gold. I have yet to see one of the AI build a Library. I guess what I'm saying is that the AI seems smart enough to realize that there is nothing to research.

As for the commerce changes, this would effect the amount of gold that a civ can accumulate. Gold, and thus commerce, will still be needed to pay for an army and to supply that army in the field. It would also affect upgrades. If you have horses hooked up, but not iron, then you can build Horse Archers, but not Knights. Later, when your iron is hooked up, you can upgrade them all to Knights, IF you have enough gold. Personally, I feel that your commerce proposal would be tougher on the AI rather than the human. We could manage our army based upon the gold, the AI may not be able to do that or to do it as well.

Originally Posted by ruff_hi

The other thing I am thinking about is upping the cat power and changing it to a trebuchet (maybe str 7).

I really don't think this is necessary. Remember that collateral damage does not take the units strength into account, but rather is a straight percentage. And in combat, a str 8 Macemen versus a str 5 cat really isn't all that out of line. I would vote to leave it alone.

Originally Posted by ruff_hi

I'm not sure what to do about religion - leave it in, or take it out? I do want to remove all wonders so the AI doesn't waste time building them.

I've been thinking about the religion question myself. Basically, removing religion will hurt the AI more than the human. The AI will rely on the happiness boost more than the human will. Ideally, it would be nice to find a way to allow the religions to be given to the AI and not allow the human to have one. Not a problem for an ancient age start, but a middle ages start ... Unfortunately, I haven't seen how to do this, yet. I'm leaning towards turning it off ...

As for wonders: in all of the AW games that I have played, I have never noticed the AI getting bogged down building wonders instead of troops. I don't think wonder building will be an issue in this variant or any other AW variant.

[Munterpipe]

Hey guys.
Can I join?
I don't know squat about modding though.
(I find it hard enough to post screenshots and links )
But the challenge sounds really exciting.

[ruff_hi]

Colony, Munterpipe - you guys are in.

@Conroe - can you post the mod that you have with instructions on how to load it.

I would suggest that we play a couple of private games with it and give feedback for changes / improvements. That way, we don't start the SG with a mod that could be improved. I don't think you need to play a whole game, just 50 or so turns to get a feel for things.

I'm a bit concerned that we will all generate lots of $ and have nothing to do with it.

Last point - I suggested Always War - that means that everyone is at war with us, not everyone is at war with everyone else. We could not go 'AW' but we could increase aggression / hatred so that more wars likely - comments?

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by ruff_hi

I'm a bit concerned that we will all generate lots of $ and have nothing to do with it.

Two ideas: the first is exploitative (so you probably don't want to do this), but build what ever cheap unit you want and do a mass upgrade, warriors to macemen for example. You know Civ 3 style- pillage your iron.

the second is to enable the Universal Suffrage civic so that you can rush stuff with gold, maybe enable the Police State civic so that there is a realy strategic choice to be made in that column.

[ruff_hi]

Originally Posted by Atlas*

Two ideas: the first is exploitative (so you probably don't want to do this), but build what ever cheap unit you want and do a mass upgrade, warriors to macemen for example. You know Civ 3 style- pillage your iron.

the second is to enable the Universal Suffrage civic so that you can rush stuff with gold, maybe enable the Police State civic so that there is a realy strategic choice to be made in that column.

I thought of the first and would be happy to do it as long as the AI can also make use of this method - I am betting that it cannot.

[ChrTh]

Instead of having no tech research, how about a truncated tree? Everyone starts with everything in the Literature column except Machinery. Research extends up to the Military Tradition column except Philosophy, Divine Right, Nationalism, Military Tradition, and Constitution are removed (Liberalism, too? If we keep Liberalism, replace Philosophy pre-req with Printing Press). Then severely jack up the research costs for everything except Machinery (I'll explain why in a second). Turn off Tech Trading.

To discourage going nuts for Gunpowder and Guilds, give Crossbowmen extra bonuses against Mounted and Gunpowder units. That way, someone who doesn't want to go research heavy can still hold their own against more advanced troops via quantity.

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by ruff_hi

I thought of the first and would be happy to do it as long as the AI can also make use of this method - I am betting that it cannot.

They will never do this, they get 25% cost upgrades on Prince and just don't think to do things like pillage a resource to quickly build cheap units, but why not just enable universal suffrage?

[Conroe]

Originally Posted by ruff_hi

@Conroe - can you post the mod that you have with instructions on how to load it.

I can do that. What about religion? Is it in or out?

Originally Posted by ruff_hi

I'm a bit concerned that we will all generate lots of $ and have nothing to do with it.

Yes, we will build up a bit of gold reserves, even without building any cottages. But, what is there to spend the money on? Upgrades, city maintenance, and troop supply are the only things that I can think of. But, why do we care how much money is in the treasury? As long as we have enough and the AI have enough, then everyone is on equal footing. I guess I just don't understand the reasoning behind your concerns.

[ruff_hi]

Originally Posted by Conroe

I can do that. What about religion? Is it in or out?

Leave it in.

Originally Posted by Conroe

Yes, we will build up a bit of gold reserves, even without building any cottages. But, what is there to spend the money on? Upgrades, city maintenance, and troop supply are the only things that I can think of. But, why do we care how much money is in the treasury? As long as we have enough and the AI have enough, then everyone is on equal footing. I guess I just don't understand the reasoning behind your concerns.

I don't want the humans to use the exploit atlas mentioned while the AIs don't.

Maybe the solution is to enable the $-buying of units.

the other thing we could do is limit the science slider to 50%, 60% or 70% or just a fixed number - call it a tithe to the ruling religion.

[Atlas]

With the extra $ you could just pump the culture slider up super high, I can definately see some benefits to that and the AI would be welcome to that too.

Sorry to butt into your game here I just like to read and can't seem to keep my mouth shut... something like this guy

-Atlas