Domestic Department – Term 7

Welcome to the center of all Domestic Activities.


Here we'll discuss the domestic progress of the Empire.
Please post all comments and domestic-related discussion here.

Notes for Future Reference:









Science Update: We Have Theology! Starting work on Education 0/1320 (+228?)

Treasury: 197 (+29?) (-40 to TNT 1 of 5 payments)

Black Purse: 28 (+2)

Domesitc Headline News:
2 New Towns Founded! Christened: “Tha She Blows” and "Rollah Coasta"
We have learned the secret of Theology!





Domestic Orders for turn 120:






Please post any and all comments or suggestions here!

From the desk of the Domestic Minister:
* Happily, a small drop of just 10% in our Science spending will pick us up 29 gold per turn. This will easily keep us in the black till we can get TNT paid off for Engineering – and still gets us Education in just 6 turns.

*I’m thinking we should send our settler “Eskimo” to finish our western boundary with KISS by settling location Jungle Fountain. It’s not ideal for making workers, but we’ve got 2 new settlers coming next turn and we are running out of high food locations now anyway. Other opinions?

* Yes, I know term 7 doesn’t officially start till turn 121 – but I like the idea of starting on exactly 200 BC, and I thought , "hey, I'll get an early start on it!"

Just thinking about the benefits of tapping into Whales

We have a number of coastal towns that could benefit from expanding the cultural borders.

> Agrili
> Ithaca, this also will gain extra Furs
> Ephebe, already producing Library
> Mpanana
> Abdera
> Miletus

I understand that with some of the newest cities it is prudent to continue with Worker production but could you relook the situation, certainly the first two on the list ?

Thanks for bringing this up Fe.
I have been thinking about this – but we've got some challenges.
I'll take your town list one-at-a-time…

> Agrili
* I agree – this is a good candidate for a Library even apart from culture expansion needs. After the current worker finishes, I think we can grab one. Courthouse would be the other option, but combined with the need for culture, I think the Library wins out.

> Ithaca
* We've discussed this one, and I'm eager to get a Library here also… a border expansion won't just help us get more resources… it'll also expand our LOS to watch the channel. I'm hoping Chamnix will use some workers to mine that mountain to speed an eventual build of a Library. (but he sent our latest worker away ) anyway – this is a strategic necessity… so even if Cham doesn’t prioritize mining the Mountain, I'll probably order work to start on library after this next worker is done. We'll try to force his hand

> Ephebe
* As you noted – already working on a Library

> Mpanana
* we do need to do this one, but with so much jungle around, we need to get that cleared. Still, I'd support the library after the current worker build is done.

> Abdera
* Yes – after the current worker is done.

> Miletus
* We cannot build culture here, per our border agreement with KISS.

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For Refrence, Here's the Courthouse info from Chamnix…

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Also – want to start the discussion on what to do in Athens after the Colossus completes in 2 turns.

In my opinion, our top options (in no particular order) are:
* A settler
* Great Library (For insurance. Would start Golden Age)
* Pre-build for Copernicus Observatory (We can likely get Astronomy before we get the 400 shields. Double science rate in Athens would be sweet. No G.A.)
* Pre-build for University (we should have Education before the 100 shields accumulate. 50% boost to science)

Obviously we could do some combination of the above.
Looking forward to getting opinions!

Yes Athens should be the pinnacle of MIA glory and show the world our pride in being Greek ... as is shown by the giant bronze sundial we have built.

Let's not overdo the libraries. Libraries cost maintenance, and they do no good in corrupt towns. Even corrupt towns with whales - it is not worth getting a border expansion to get the whale in the radius if the whale provides no benefit whatsoever after corruption.

Mpanana is the most obvious example - it is 89% corrupt and will be 90% once we found a couple more towns closer to Athens. The whale and the library combined will not provide a single extra coin after the maintenance cost and we will often lose gold.

A little less obvious but similar is a town like Agrili. I doubt we will ever get a marketplace there, so it may grow to size 7, but certainly no larger. At size 7, best case is we get around 30 commerce gross. It is 64% corrupt now (and will get a little worse as its rank increases) so we are looking at 11 commerce after corruption. A library would provide at most 5 beakers per turn if we are running 100% science and using all high commerce tiles. More likely it will provide an average of about 3 bpt and cost us 1 gpt in maintenance. 40 shields seems like an awful lot to spend to get a net gain of probably 2 gpt.

Every town we need to look at how much a library will really provide for us before we build it.

Athens I would vote prebuild for university.

Re: Libraries
Your point on Mpanna is well taken Chamnix. I suppose we can just scrap plans on it.

However - I'm less eager to write-off Agrili - after we get a courthouse there, it could be a 50% productive city (just a guess, no math)
Maybe this is a good example of a city where we should build the courthouse first and look for the library later?

Abdera could also go Courthouse first... but it's already near the 50% mark and given the potential to use the whale to help grow and build, I think Library first makes more sense. Yes?

Ithaca - as I mentioned - I see good solid strategic reasons to get a library there... and uge the President to consider sending a couple workers to join the worker that will be built in Ithaca to quickly road and mine that mountain square.

Re: WONDERful Athens
A University pre-build is the most conservative option we have. The more I think about that option, the more I like it also. We won't be in a tight race for Cop's Observ if we want to build it next... KISS and Dnuts don't even have Monotheism yet! So we should face any real competition for that wonder.
I'm also starting to re-think the Great Library a bit. It may not be so terrible if the Dnuts get it. Since they're not really coordinating Research with KISS, it'll actually serve to reduce Dnuts trading options with KISS… which is really the main thing we care about… and if the Nuts build it, it means they aren't going 100% after TNT… which is also good for us.
Sure, it's not ideal, and hopefully everyone will just let it pass by. But if they do get, I'm not sure it's as big of a setback as we once feared.
We can make a big deal of MIA closing in on Education in our International Newspaper to try to discourage anyone from building the GL.
Or is that tipping our research hand too much?

I think it's pretty clear that a library without a courthouse in Agrili is not a very good investment. A library and a courthouse would be 120 shields which is a pretty tall order for a town that will be hard pressed to get above 4 spt net. If we want just one building, then a courthouse is probably called for, and once it's done, we can evaluate whether a library is the best build or if we have other needs at that point. Eventually, we should do the math to determine how useful a courthouse would be in various locations and go from there.

The Great Library is no threat at all if TNT gets slaughtered - it is only a threat if we are carrying someone to the Industrial Age with us.

I'll have to get back to you on Ithaca's situation - I understand your point about visibility, but by the time we get 40 shields there and get the expansion, it may not be very long before Dnuts have Astronomy and don't need to use that crossing anyway. Mountains just take so long to work - I am reluctant to spend 18-27 worker turns adding 1-2 shields to a moderate town. If we need shields there, we will probably just put a forest on the tundra furs, but I'll look a little more later.

I like the University prebuild (after settler, right?)

Then I think we may want to start a Copernicus prebuild.

my two cents

I've discovered I can do corruption analysis with CivAssist. The program will let me essentially test place building in our cities and see what the result will be.

Here's the effect on corruption if we add a courthouse to the following cities:
Agrili – 64% down to 44%
Ithaca – 56% down to 39%
Abdera – 53% down to 39%

Obviously these numbers could squirrel around on us a bit as we plant those 2 cities closer to home. And since they are different from your calculations Chamnix, I'm not sure which is actually correct.

But for what it's worth – if you want me to run any of these numbers for you, just let me know the towns, and I'll be happy to do it.


Also @ Chamnix: I look forward to seeing more analysis on what to do with Ithaca. As always, you make good points – but, with a courthouse, Ithaca has the potential to be a pretty nice city for us. We've got to start improving it at some point! And I'd prioritize getting up the shield count on a 40% corrupt city over clearing the jungle personally. But if you're convinced there are better uses for the workers, I'll defer to your judgment obviously. As president, workers are your call.

Looks like we're getting a good consensus on the University build.

@Peter – No, I wasn't thinking about doing a settler next from Athens. That would delay the university, and really, with Athens being the powerhouse that it is, there's nowhere left for a setter to go that will make up for even a 2 turn delay in getting our University there. Imho.

We've got 14 sites left to assign Settlers to.
I believe we'll have 2 more settlers next turn, and then we've still got 3 cities working on Settler Factory Duty. (EMP city, Black Hole, and Heron)
Together, these 3 towns should produce enough settlers to finish our plan in term 7. Especially if we get some bonus help from some other towns – like maybe Ephebe or Virtuoso after they finish their current projects?

I'm not sure why you say those calculations are different from mine - the only town I tried to calculate was Hindus River, and you didn't list that one

CAII seems to be more correct than I am (although my numbers are not usually very different anyway) - Hindus River CAII said 44%, I said 46%, and I think only 4 gold out of 10 was corrupt, so apparently I always do something wrong, or something gets rounded/truncated somewhere that I don't about, or something...

Based on those numbers, I think Agrili screams courthouse. The way I look at it, it goes from 36% non-corrupt to 56% non-corrupt so it gets 56% (56/36 - 1 ) more shields, more science, and more money - a courthouse is essentially a bank, library, and factory all rolled into one 80-shield package. The only limiting factor is if it can build a courthouse in a reasonable period of time.

There's no urgency to do this immediately, but we should look at all our 25%-75% towns to see where a courthouse is worth the shields.

I think you are missing two towns to be settled - Fish 'N Furs and South Harbor.

Also, I would be reluctant to let cities go back below size 7 if we can help it. At size 7, we get 3 extra gold in the center tile (subject to corruption but also subject to multiplication), and we save 4 gpt in unit costs. As with Athens, it's tough to see a settler being worth quite that much right now. I think we might be better with Black Hole producing a university next (with a pre-build - should take around 10 turns total), and then it should be big enough to produce another settler or maybe 2.

The counterargument would be that the sooner we get our settlers done, the sooner we can get aqueducts in Heron and EMP City to make them more productive for us.

Chamnix said:

I'm not sure why you say those calculations are different from mine

Click to expand...

I just meant "in general" - but it sounds like CAII is more accurate.
When I get more time, I'll work up a list of courthouse effects on our towns.

Chamnix said:

Based on those numbers, I think Agrili screams courthouse.

Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. A 20% swing in corruption is hard to ignore.

Chamnix said:

I think you are missing two towns to be settled - Fish 'N Furs and South Harbor.

Click to expand...

Good Catch. Thanks.

Chamnix said:

I think we might be better with Black Hole producing a university next (with a pre-build - should take around 10 turns total), and then it should be big enough to produce another settler or maybe 2.

Click to expand...

I agree with this. Realistically, a big reason we're even finishing the settlement plan is just to get it done at this point. It'll be a while before most of those cities really contribute much of value to our Empire.
So it's not a huge deal to delay it somewhat. Delaying the improvement of Heron and EMP city is a bit of a bummer... but the pressure on them can be better relieved by other towns later, imo.

I think a good plan for Domestic Term 7 is starting to take shape!

Got an expected break at work…

Corruption List
For MIA towns currently between 25% and 75% corruption
With projected effect from a Courthouse build

Parga – 68% (49%)
Filiatra – 62% (46%)
Woodridge – 61% (45%)
Ithaca – 56% (39%)
Sparta – 53% (40%)
Abdera – 53% (39%)
The Two Rivers – 53% (38%)
Agrili – 64% (44%)
Hindus River – 44% (31%)
Ceasaria – 42% (32%)
Pale Dove – 42% (30%)
Olympia – 40% (29%)
Phoenopolis – 33% (23%)
Tarkingrad – 32% (22%)
Gorin – 31% (25%)
Ephebe – 30% (21%)
Look Here – 27% (22%)
Aliakmon Stronghold – 24% (19%)
Antville – 24% (15%)

* I included the last 2, as they may jump over 25% when our settlement plan is done.
I may move this to my first post in this thread so we don't lose track of it.

Science Update: Education 231/1320 (+221?)

Treasury: 65 (+28?) (-40 to TNT 2 of 5 payments)

Black Purse: 30 (+2)

Domesitc Headline News:
2 New Settlers Produced
Engineers Estimate the Colossus will be done next turn!




Proposed Domestic Orders for turn 121:






Please post any and all comments or suggestions here!

From the desk of the Domestic Minister:
* I thinking we want to finish the southern part of our expansion asap. We could use the extra help in unit support right now while the budget is tight, and we don’t have any real good locations left up north anyway. Getting these final 2 towns done will let us finalize our corruption numbers in our core, and start planning with certainty what we want built in our core and sub-core towns.

* Other thoughts?

I agree with settling close locations first at this point...

I think Chuck Norrisville could be changed from wealth to worker this turn - the jungle will be cleared, and in multiplayer it seems worker turns are completed first, so the scientist can work a 2 food tile.

I'm a little nervous about the courthouse in Woodridge - yes, I know it is very similar to Agrili which I claimed screamed courthouse (I may change my mind about that one too if I ever do a proper analyis ), but let's think it through. I don't know how likely it is that Woodridge will get an aqueduct since it's not exactly in a high growth area and 100 shields would be a lot (I believe Agrili is on a river - that's one difference). Even if it does get an aqueduct, it would be a while before it is complete. I think at size 6, Woodridge could produce 12-14 shields gross. The courthouse would give us a boost of 2-3 shields net. We spend 80 shields building a courthouse (probably about 30-40 turns), then it takes us another 27-40 turns to earn those extra shields back. Therefore it is 57-80 turns before we break even in shields.

What about income? Woodridge is also a pretty low income area (Agrili is high income). At size 6, we will get 17 commerce gross. Again the courthouse would grant us an extra 2-3 net. Subtract 1 for the maintenance cost of the courthouse, and we get 1-2 gpt.

I agree that if we are putting a building in Woodridge, then a courthouse is the only building worth considering. What's our other choice? I think everyone knows what I'm thinking...

I wouldn't have a clue ... do you want me to send you a Greek menu ???

How will happiness affect corruption, because I am thinking that we should be going to make these cities happy and thus we can get greater commerce as a result of this.

I guess you are talking about We Love the Emperor for Life Day? If we can get a town of size 6 or greater to have no unhappy people and more happy people than content people (or maybe at least as many happy as content - I don't remember), then we get the effect of a courthouse for free for purposes of waste but not corruption (i.e. it affects shields but not commerce).

To get to WLTEFLD on Emperor level, we either have to have a marketplace in a town or use the luxury slider (or goad someone into declaring war on us ). Right now it is unlikely that raising the luxury slider will increase production in enough towns by enough shields to make it worth the loss of income, but we can look at the save.

Should we consider a marketplace in a town like Woodridge instead of a courthouse? For 20 extra shields we have the same effect on waste (assuming we keep 6 luxuries and keep Woodridge at size 6). A marketplace would increase commerce by more than a courthouse if we were running 100% tax, but most of the time, it will probably have less effect than a courthouse.

As we get marketplaces in our size 7 cities, they will go into WLTEFLD. As we have significant corrupt towns grow to 8 or 9, then it will actually help us to get a 7th luxury (gems).

Doesn't WLTEFLD just last for as long as the city is celebrating?

Yes - that's why we would need to keep a town like Woodridge at size 6 and keep our 6 luxuries to get the effect. If either dropped, the celebration would end.

Oh man

This is what I get for sleeping through that joint Foreign/Defense meeting where they agreed to spend all our money on upgrading to a Knight.

So we're down to 65 gold cash reserves?!?
Did Black Purse money get spent for this?!?

Man – this changes things a bit. Now we're going to have to drop our science spending next turn to keep paying off TNT


Now – regarding Woodridge, our settlement plan has left Woodridge lots of tiles to use as it grows. A courthouse will keep it's corruption at around 45% - productive enough to be worthwhile. Our very tight budget has me feeling miserly about spending upkeep on even more workers. We've already got a huge army of them in the filed (47 workers I think), and another 14 towns currently building new workers. We will continue to build workers at a frantic pace… but we've got to start peeling off cities for infrastructure here soon… even if it's a long road. A journey of 1,000 miles begins with a single step.
Sure, Woodridge has a long road ahead of it to get all of the infrastructure it needs… but to win this game, I think we're going to need to take full advantage of every town we can get that is below 50% corrupt. At this fringe is where our Commercial trait gives us the most definite edge over KISS. (ie, KISS could never make Woodridge worthwhile – we can… therefore if we make it worthwhile, then we're up an extra good city on KISS) I know that logic is a little sketchy – but hopefully you agree my basic point is sound.

After we get out of our debt-hole with TNT, and if peace between TNT and Dnuts is secured, then we'll likely be able to build our cash reserves back up, and we can look at rushing the last 10-20 shields on the Courthouse and Aqueduct for Woodridge… so the journey may not be as long as it first appears.


Re: Chuck Norrisville – I agree totally. Let's start on a worker. I'll adjust orders accordingly. (Make that 15 towns now working on building workers for us!)