ybbor
Will not change his avata
Matters under discussion at the UN:
- none at the moment
Team Captain Terms 7-8
- Thread starter ybbor
- Start date
Not sure where to put this, but I'm a little confused by our constitution with respect to refugees.
Can refugees vote?
It says all citizens can vote, and refugees are a class of citizens, but it also says they need to become Naturalized to gain the right to vote (and to run for office). And as a practical matter, could we actually prevent them from voting in private polls if we wanted to?
Can refugees run for office?
Again, it mentions becoming a Naturalized citizen as gaining the right to run for office, but it also talks about the requirements for a refugee to be able to run (presumably as a refugee?).
TNT doesn't have many active people, so I'm not concerned about a massive influx, but I think we might get a couple new people, so we should probably know what our rules are
.
Can refugees vote?
It says all citizens can vote, and refugees are a class of citizens, but it also says they need to become Naturalized to gain the right to vote (and to run for office). And as a practical matter, could we actually prevent them from voting in private polls if we wanted to?
Can refugees run for office?
Again, it mentions becoming a Naturalized citizen as gaining the right to run for office, but it also talks about the requirements for a refugee to be able to run (presumably as a refugee?).
TNT doesn't have many active people, so I'm not concerned about a massive influx, but I think we might get a couple new people, so we should probably know what our rules are
.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
I don't know - the constitution seems pretty clear to me!
Refugees can only vote and hold office if they've been naturalized by a vote of the founding members.
However - I believe the only "Founders" that are still active on our team are Classical Hero, Fe3333au, Peter Grimes, Azzaman333, and Ybbor.
Although I can't find an actual list anywhere?
Maybe that should be amended? Or else I guess Chamnix and I just don't get to vote
... since we're just lowly natural citizens.
Anyway - while I was looking this up, I found the first post Chamnix ever made in the MIA forums...thought I'd share it with everyone....
(after being welcomed to the team by Peter Grimes)
- too funny!
This from the man who was to become the MM master, Emperor for life, and Generator of more reading than anyone else! Ah the irony
Refugees can only vote and hold office if they've been naturalized by a vote of the founding members.
Spoiler :
However - I believe the only "Founders" that are still active on our team are Classical Hero, Fe3333au, Peter Grimes, Azzaman333, and Ybbor.
Although I can't find an actual list anywhere?
Maybe that should be amended? Or else I guess Chamnix and I just don't get to vote
... since we're just lowly natural citizens. Anyway - while I was looking this up, I found the first post Chamnix ever made in the MIA forums...thought I'd share it with everyone....
(after being welcomed to the team by Peter Grimes)
Chamnix said:
- too funny! This from the man who was to become the MM master, Emperor for life, and Generator of more reading than anyone else! Ah the irony
I'd like to point out that that post was made July 29 - i.e. 2 days before the deadline to be a Founder citizen, Mr. Lowly Natural Citizen. 
Anyway I guess these are the parts that made me unsure:
Edit - but maybe this is the key?
I don't really care much either way - I hope any refugees become natural citizens anyway, but I thought we should know before it becomes an issue.
Anyway I guess these are the parts that made me unsure:
Spoiler :
Edit - but maybe this is the key?
Spoiler :
I don't really care much either way - I hope any refugees become natural citizens anyway, but I thought we should know before it becomes an issue.
Black_Hole
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2004
- Messages
- 3,424
ybbor
Will not change his avata
General_W said:
you can pretty much take me off that list. No time with finals approaching, and the game has progressed to the point where it's getting away from me. This will be my last term.
fe3333au
Deity
However - I believe the only "Founders" that are still active on our team are Classical Hero, Fe3333au, Peter Grimes, Azzaman333, and Ybbor
We have a sticky titled ... Hall of Citizens and Constitution on second post is a link to founders.
They are and will remain honoured and have more entitlements then all others
... they are those who joined before July 31st 2005
MIA FOUNDERS
1. Black_Hole
CivGeneral
2. classical_hero
Emp. Napoleon
3. Meleager
4. fe3333au
Naimyth
5. azzaman333
6. ybbor
Kentharu
Spud Boy
squirrelz rulez
BigNHuge
Fallensmith
7. peter grimes
enter`name`here
8. Chamnix
So those 8 ... (well 5 are most active and regular) ... will decide naturalising refugees to enable them to vote.
We have a sticky titled ... Hall of Citizens and Constitution on second post is a link to founders.
They are and will remain honoured and have more entitlements then all others
... they are those who joined before July 31st 2005MIA FOUNDERS
1. Black_Hole
2. classical_hero
3. Meleager
4. fe3333au
5. azzaman333
6. ybbor
7. peter grimes
8. Chamnix
So those 8 ... (well 5 are most active and regular) ... will decide naturalising refugees to enable them to vote.
gbno1fan
Emperor
I think we should amend the constitution to allow for a citizen to move from "naturalized" to "founder" class. I have many reasons:
First, there could be a time in the future when there are only a couple of founders left, and those founders could dominate the issues that they are only allowed to vote on. The rest of our team is set up in a very democratic manner, while this scenario to me speaks elitist or even dictatorish.
Second, there could even be a time in the future when there are no remaining founders who are actively involved with the team (let's hope this never happens!). Then who would vote for refugees to become naturalized?
Third, I think we should encourage the ability to move between the classes. Do we really want to have a team with locked social classes? I think giving the incentive of being able to eventually become a "Founding Class" citizen would prove to be beneficial in the long run as many members may be more excited to contribute more.
First, there could be a time in the future when there are only a couple of founders left, and those founders could dominate the issues that they are only allowed to vote on. The rest of our team is set up in a very democratic manner, while this scenario to me speaks elitist or even dictatorish.
Second, there could even be a time in the future when there are no remaining founders who are actively involved with the team (let's hope this never happens!). Then who would vote for refugees to become naturalized?
Third, I think we should encourage the ability to move between the classes. Do we really want to have a team with locked social classes? I think giving the incentive of being able to eventually become a "Founding Class" citizen would prove to be beneficial in the long run as many members may be more excited to contribute more.
ybbor
Will not change his avata
the section was put in so that 9 people from TNT can't come in, dominate our elections, and rename us "TNT version 2.0" We can always just move the founder date up to June 1st
fe3333au
Deity
Sorry the founders are exactly that ... the founding members who molded what MIA is.
Typical of you noobs to take that stance
House Feaurius will vote against your liberal attitude and we are concerned that you so easily dismiss our traditions and history
Typical of you noobs to take that stance
House Feaurius will vote against your liberal attitude and we are concerned that you so easily dismiss our traditions and history
I think Gb brings up some very valid points. Once this election cycle is over, I think we should allow non-founders the chance to request to be granted Founder status. For example, there is no reason at that GB should have fewer voting rights than CivGeneral simply due to an accident of timing.
By aligning with House Grimes, you will all find a very welcoming atmosphere conducive to inclusion and progress, rather than the Xenophobia and Isolationist tendencies that characterize House Feaurius.
By aligning with House Grimes, you will all find a very welcoming atmosphere conducive to inclusion and progress, rather than the Xenophobia and Isolationist tendencies that characterize House Feaurius.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Hooray for House Grimes! ![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
fe3333au
Deity
Barr Humbug ... The founders created MIA ... if this continues we will ALL be founders 
Are you saying that MIA would be better off if General_W had fewer rights than Fallensmith?! Because that's really what it sounds like.
Our team is only as strong as the individual members working together. If people are going to get hung up on semantics, then that's going to detract from our effectiveness. I think it's much better (and more powerful) to include more people in all the discussions and polls.
Our team is only as strong as the individual members working together. If people are going to get hung up on semantics, then that's going to detract from our effectiveness. I think it's much better (and more powerful) to include more people in all the discussions and polls.
gbno1fan
Emperor
This is indisputable as a fact. The founders did create MIA, and all of us who have come after are indebted to them for setting up an excellent governmental body.Fearius the Scrooge :old: said:
I didn't intend for my suggestion to lead to all of us being founders. Instead, I would like to see a system set up that will allow select individuals to be given the honorary designation of being part of the "founding" class.Fearius the Scrooge :old: said:
Perhaps we set it up in a format similar to naturalizing refugees?
If a citizen wishes to become a member of the "founding" class, he or she must gain support and sponsorship of the President of Team Captain. If sponsorship is granted, a poll will be set up for 72 hours in which all current members of the "founding" class citizens cast a vote. If a majority of the votes cast agree that the citizen should be granted status, then he or she is.
We may also want to put a time limit in between times that a citizen can attempt to become a "founding" class citizen. Say, you can only gain sponsorship and have a vote once per term?
Where's the "can of worms" smilie?
The word Founder makes sense to me as the people who were here upon Founding. No one else can "become" a "Founder". Language aside however, I don't really see why someone who joined a few weeks later and has contributed greatly to our team should not be able to be granted equal voting rights.
Someone can draft an amendment, and we'll vote on it. Of course, a Founder has to either write or second the amendment, but if gbno1fan writes one, I will second it.
The word Founder makes sense to me as the people who were here upon Founding. No one else can "become" a "Founder". Language aside however, I don't really see why someone who joined a few weeks later and has contributed greatly to our team should not be able to be granted equal voting rights.
Someone can draft an amendment, and we'll vote on it. Of course, a Founder has to either write or second the amendment
, but if gbno1fan writes one, I will second it.
ybbor
Will not change his avata
I think the simpleist solution would simply be to move the founding date up to June 1st. We can all agree that there is no reason for anyone on TNT to become a founder, right?
fe3333au
Deity
Move the founding date 
... Why not just re-write history ???
I very tongue in cheek with this ...
but just so you non-Founders know ... I came up with the concept of founder as I forsaw a time when refugees would join the team. I wanted to create a safety mechanism for a time when refugees outnumbered originals ... so the concept of refugees cannot vote came up.
BUT ... will they still keep with the game if they can never be 'naturalised', it is important for me to create an inclusive environment ... so I came up with the fun way to achieve this ... Let the people who laid the foundation of MIA decide.
Having an original member (or Founder) decide for a refugee to get voting status is the ONLY additional responsibility that a Founder has. It is no big deal and also a reward for those that spent the time and energy setting up the foundations of what MIA is today ... I wrote it to have a little fun later in the game.
I see that this seems to have created a problem with those who do not have such rights ... if this is the case, get rid of the term 'founder' and create another protection system (but I think the founding system has the least jealousy attached)
I will vote against changing the name or the date because they are both linked ... the date to when our game actually started ... and the name to exactly describe who they are. My personal stance is that if a member joined after all the hard work had already been done, even by 1 day ... well ... bad luck and get over it ... you can never be a 'founder'.
Change both if you must but this was the better or most natural solution to NOT causing a rift or jealousy thing as a date is not open to interpretaion and the most important date to this game is the beginning.
So I await another solution to protecting our team from potential takeover or agenda hyjack.
But frankly if the time comes when there are no founders left, well that would probably mean that the game has stalled due to lack of interest.
... Why not just re-write history ???I very tongue in cheek with this ...
but just so you non-Founders know
... I came up with the concept of founder as I forsaw a time when refugees would join the team. I wanted to create a safety mechanism for a time when refugees outnumbered originals ... so the concept of refugees cannot vote came up.BUT ... will they still keep with the game if they can never be 'naturalised', it is important for me to create an inclusive environment ... so I came up with the fun way to achieve this ... Let the people who laid the foundation of MIA decide.
Spoiler relevant Sections in Constitution :
Having an original member (or Founder) decide for a refugee to get voting status is the ONLY additional responsibility that a Founder has. It is no big deal and also a reward for those that spent the time and energy setting up the foundations of what MIA is today ... I wrote it to have a little fun later in the game.
I see that this seems to have created a problem with those who do not have such rights ... if this is the case, get rid of the term 'founder' and create another protection system
(but I think the founding system has the least jealousy attached)I will vote against changing the name or the date because they are both linked ... the date to when our game actually started ... and the name to exactly describe who they are. My personal stance is that if a member joined after all the hard work had already been done, even by 1 day ... well ... bad luck and get over it ... you can never be a 'founder'.
Change both if you must but this was the better or most natural solution to NOT causing a rift or jealousy thing as a date is not open to interpretaion and the most important date to this game is the beginning.
So I await another solution to protecting our team from potential takeover or agenda hyjack.
But frankly if the time comes when there are no founders left, well that would probably mean that the game has stalled due to lack of interest.
azzaman333
meh
Founder or Natural, you are still important. 
(of course, i wouldnt be saying this if i wasnt a founder, would i)
(of course, i wouldnt be saying this if i wasnt a founder, would i
)
ybbor
Will not change his avata
fe3333au said:but just so you non-Founders know
It was Ihttp://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=124272
beat July 20th
