n0x-01 -- I Wonder...

I don't know if this has been done before but I wanted to try something new... Builders: your dreams have come through...

Background

“From wonder into wonder existence opens.” from Lao Tzu

Wonders are a fun part of the game. In my opinion they are fairly balanced since they give a slight advantage, yet they are not required to win. Most people build the stonehenge, pyramids or oracle in the beginning, and usually skip throughout most other wonders (some try the GL as well) because the benefit of later wonders are small compared to the huge amount of resources one has to allocate to build them and the modern age wonders are usually to late to make a real big difference. But maybe all those people are wrong. Maybe the true way to victory is through wonders. I wonder...

The Variant

In this game we're going to try to build ALL the WorldWonders.

• We lose if another Civ builds ANY wonder
• We lose if we lose control of ANY wonder
• We have to build all wonders before they are obsolete
• We cannot win the game before we build ALL the wonders (including National Wonders...)
• The only exception to the rules are the holy shrines: building them all might also be possible, something I tend to investige if this game is won

The Settings
To make things more interesting we're going to play either on Pangea or Terra with at least 4 aggressive Civs. This way it's going to be a challenge to see if we can keep the AI from trampling all over us.

• Difficulty: Prince
• Map Type: Pangea or Terra
• Map Size: Standard
• Civ: Open for discussion
• Raging Barb: On
• Victory: All enabled (although cultural seems like a safe gamble )

The Players
- n0xie
- omni_paul
- Sina
- the_scorpion645
- Atlas
- Kikinit
0 playerslot open and 1 alternate open

As this is going to be a builder type game I advice die-hard warmongers to think twice before joining. It might be a really boring game for those who like to wage war. I'm not saying we won't wage war at all, but chances are most of the differences will be resolved through diplomacy.

No special qualification needed. Just a good sense of humor and follow normal SG ethiquette (standard 24hrs got it, 48hrs to play and report).

Sorry Greyfox I stole your layout

Our starting location:

lurker's comment:

We lose if another Civ builds ANY wonder

Click to expand...

Not to put a damper on things, but this is impossible on any level above Warlord. How about instead you declare war on any Civ that builds a wonder any not make peace until you take the city?

lurker comment:

i agree w/ChrTh here...losing if you miss ANY wonder pretty much guarentees a loss

I'd be interested in joining this one if you change the "We lose if another civ builds any wonder" as that is impossible.
Maybe something like you could miss 2 per age?

Or indeed going to war and having to capture a wonder if it is built by another civ. But then you want this to be a builders game.

I win all of my Prince games and most of my Monarch games by space or culture usually. Yes, I am certainly a builder, but don't have anything against a small war now and then.

I'd be up for this... I was actually thinking of starting this one myself under the title: 'It's a wonder-full life!'

Ahem, yes... I'd be in favour of the war against anyone who gets a wonder, perhaps with a turn limit to capture it. Also, shrines are technically wonders, are we required to capture those as well?

Lurker
so, you guys Ghandi right?

Lurker's Comment:

Recommending several restarts until you get stone or marble in your initial fat cross if you want every single one.

Maybe a slight modification to require at least X wonders per era? Honestly, there are a lot of wonders in the game, mainly to keep people from doing what you're proposing.

I've done it on Noble with China, not even intending to. I had early stone and marble, and got quick expansion through war. Was a fun game.

Lurker's Comment

As this is going to be a builder type game I advice die-hard warmongers to think twice before joining. It might be a really boring game for those who like to wage war.

Click to expand...

I am not so sure abt this, I would think this is the game where you can only win through war. It is close to imposible to build all wonders without losing at least one to the AI. So the only way out is to let the AI do the work for you and you later conquer them.

Not to put a damper on things, but this is impossible on any level above Warlord. How about instead you declare war on any Civ that builds a wonder any not make peace until you take the city?

Click to expand...

Well from my own experience, if it's below monarch it should be doable. So we're going to try prince for now and if we get *****slapped all over the place I'll be the first to say I was wrong. I played many OCC games where I pretty much build most wonders, skipping the ones I didn't find interesting. Sure you max your hammeroutput with OCC but 'impossible' seems a bit strong in my opinion...

You need either stone or marble (pref both) but either will get you a long way. The 'coast' wonders get started by the AI very late and it's not unusual for me to have stone henge (only 2 chops with stone!), pyramids and oracle without actively trying to build wonders. That leaves the partheon which is build quite late by the AI. Literature gets skipped as well by the AI (since it's after Alphabet) so the GL is no problem.

With those wonders already build we should be able to get a tech lead quite early which means we have more time to build wonders than the AI has. Then again, one GE could ruin it for us. I think it's quite a challenge but with a bit of luck and a decent starting position, I really think we have a fair shot...

I am not so sure abt this, I would think this is the game where you can only win through war. It is close to imposible to build all wonders without losing at least one to the AI.

Click to expand...

If you're playing at prince or lower, the AI is a lot less aggressive. Basically you'd try to play a cultural win type of game (try to get 3 very good spots and 6 decent spots and then stop expanding focussing the good spots on building wonders and other usefull stuff while the rest of your cities just support with units). You can come a long way with just diplomacy if you have tech lead: bribe civs to go to war with other civs etc etc.

I never said it would be an easy game. Then again, I like a challenge

Any Ideas for a Leader? I was thinking about Qin Shi Huang (China Ind/Fin). Fin is by far the strongest trait in any game and Ind is kind of a no brainer. Then again Ghandi is tempting too (fast workers really do make a difference).

Still 3 slots to go...

So I'm in?

I did it with Qin in my China game

In my experience the only early one you need to race the AI to is the Great Lighthouse. For some reason that's the only wonder I consistently get caught building when it's BIDL.

Can't wait to get going on this one

Yes you're definetly in

Since we're playing pangea or terra not all AI civs may be able to build coastal cities which should give us a bit of an advantage. We will have to monitor closely which AI has 'sailing'. Also declaring war on an AI usually makes him switch from 'economy' builds to unit builds so we might have to declare war a few times to distract the AI

I want to sign in

I recommend you edit the map to give you stone and marble...if youre adamant about building every wonder. Otherwise I do not think this is possible

bumpity

n0xie just having an easter long weekend?

Yeah sorry about that, "holidays" are always busy for me.

Any Ideas for a Leader? I was thinking about Qin Shi Huang (China Ind/Fin). Fin is by far the strongest trait in any game and Ind is kind of a no brainer. Then again Ghandi is tempting too (fast workers really do make a difference).

Click to expand...

I can't generate maps unless I know which leader we prefer

I recommend you edit the map to give you stone and marble...if youre adamant about building every wonder. Otherwise I do not think this is possible

Click to expand...

Nah that wouldn't be very fair would it. I rather regenerate a few maps and just hope for the best. I want to stress that it's not my intention to play a 'WE MUST WIN OR WE SUCK' type of game. I just want to find out how difficult it really is. I think most will be suprised how simple it is to at least get the first few wonders if you just stay focussed.

Btw I'm going to make it 1.61 if anyone wants to know...

I would like to join too.

A few thoughts, any industrious leader is okay, but I would tend to favor Gandhi or Qin. FDR is also a favorite too and that cheap lighthouse might give us the edge in getting the Great Lighthouse. Just some thoughts.

Now for the bad news, the hit that chops took in the patch will make this a challenge . Also I think we will want to very carefully consider the order we take in tech. Also I think the thing to do is chop a few settlers soe that muiltple cities can build wonders simultaineous, we will never take all the ancient wonders in one city. Okay, well if the game is full then I will lurk, if not, I would be happy to play.

-Atlas

I have no real preferance as to which leader as long as he is Industrious.

Ghandi is Spiritual and would allow us to get a religion first (we need Polytheism anyway)which would then allow us to grow the capital one more and get more production.

Qin is Financial and the extra commerce would help us teching faster.

We definitely need a plan on what to reseach when and in what order the wonders should be built.
This depends a lot on the starting location, available resouces and forrests (less though with the patch) and what other civs are in the game. We might have to hand-pick our opponents and avoid another ind civ.

I'll play test games for the early start with Ghandi and Qin in the next days.

Welcome Atlas

Also I think we will want to very carefully consider the order we take in tech. Also I think the thing to do is chop a few settlers soe that muiltple cities can build wonders simultaineous, we will never take all the ancient wonders in one city.

Click to expand...

I was actually thinking of starting this as an OCC. Because then you can focus on building wonders only, saving turns 'not' building settlers. Also Bureaucracy and all the other capital boosters make quite a difference. The only problem I see is the 'coast' wonders. If we're going to play OCC, we want a max of 1 coast square (very unlikely) because we only have 20 squares. I still think it would actually be easier playing it OCC though...

Ghandi is Spiritual and would allow us to get a religion first (we need Polytheism anyway)which would then allow us to grow the capital one more and get more production.

Qin is Financial and the extra commerce would help us teching faster.

Click to expand...

I'm leaning towards Qin (Financial really is broken compared to the other traits imho) but the fast workers Ghandi has do seem to be very decisive in the early games in any of my games. Either way imho the key to winning this variant is to be ahead in tech, thus giving us 'more' turns to build wonders, and maybe preventing the AI from stealing a wonder away with a GE. Then again spiritual is imho one of the most underrated civics. The ability to switch to organized religion, theocracy or pacifism in the blink of an eye is very powerfull (the other civic 'trees' are pretty straightforward: lower in the listing = better) Either Qin or Ghandi would be fine with me.