RAF doctor found guilty of disobeying orders to engage in 'illegal war'

Rambuchan · Apr 13, 2006

This is a story which has been unfolding over this week in Britain. An RAF Doctor who refused to go to firearms training, kit fitting and other preparatory sessions in the run up to his deployment to Basra, has found himself infront of a court martial.

Tuesday's report
Iraq service refusal 'justified'

An RAF doctor facing charges over his refusal to serve in Iraq has told a court martial that he disobeyed orders "as a duty under international law".

Wednesday's Report
RAF doctor 'had duty to disobey'

An RAF doctor who refused to go to Iraq "honestly" believes the war is illegal, a court martial hearing was told.

Thursday's Report contained the Verdict.
saw the verdict

An RAF doctor has been found guilty of disobeying orders at a court martial after he refused to serve in Iraq.

I can't say I'm surprised with the verdict but it's an interesting case nonetheless. Comments?

Kayak · Apr 13, 2006

Interesting how this case comes after the case of the SAS soldier who was allowed an honorable discharge.

Eran of Arcadia · Apr 13, 2006

Interesting. Well, he has to do what he thinks is right. But he should understand that a part of civil disobedience is accepting the punishment that society gives you. As long as he understood that this was a possible consequence when he made his decision, he can't really complain (about what happens to him, that is, not about the war itself).

Rambuchan · Apr 13, 2006

There's another interesting court case that happened a week or two ago. Entirely different war, entirely different reasons for not going to war, very similar story. This woman's father was shot for cowardice in WWI, but it seems the guy was suffering mental illnesses related to shell shock. Anyway, they just shot him to be sure.

BBC News said:
Daughter's plea for Great War pardon

A woman whose father was shot for cowardice during World War 1 is still fighting to get his name cleared.

Gertie Harris, now 90, has written to the government to continue to press for her father to be pardoned, 87 years after he was executed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3249625.stm

Eran of Arcadia · Apr 13, 2006

Rambuchan said:
There's another interesting court case that happened a week or two ago. Entirely different war, entirely different reasons for not going to war, very similar story. This woman's father was shot for cowardice in WWI, but it seems the guy was suffering mental illnesses related to shell shock. Anyway, they just shot him to be sure.

That was apparently a real problem then, given that they understood very little about mental and psychological casualties back then. It is probable that most if not all of those executed for cowardice were actually just suffering from shell shock.

Evil Tyrant · Apr 13, 2006

There is no such thing as an illegal war, or a legal one for that matter. To be quite frank, it is not his place to decide whether or not his nation should be at war, that is a job for Britain's leaders. He is a member of the military, and should do what he is told.

Eran of Arcadia · Apr 13, 2006

Evil Tyrant said:
There is no such thing as an illegal war, or a legal one for that matter. To be quite frank, it is not his place to decide whether or not his nation should be at war, that is a job for Britain's leaders. He is a member of the military, and should do what he is told.

Or willingly accept the consequences.

Kayak · Apr 13, 2006

^ It's an illegal war if you loose.

Rik Meleet · Apr 13, 2006

Does Britain have conscription or a volunteers army ?
In case of conscription: he should not be punished. In case of a volunteers army: he should go or be punished as it was his choice to begin with. Or leave the army.

Rambuchan · Apr 13, 2006

Evil Tyrant said:
He is a member of the military, and should do what he is told.

As much as I agree with his milder views, I have to say I feel no sympathy for him for this very reason alone.

Tank_Guy#3 · Apr 13, 2006

He's a soldier. He signed on to do as his superior officers command, he doesn't like it, he could've just not joined.

As much as I agree with his milder views, I have to say I feel no sympathy for him for this very reason alone.

I agree.

MobBoss · Apr 13, 2006

Ding. Guilty verdict as I predicted. Little known fact: The military wins about 98.5 percent of all the court martials it does. If you are getting a court martial, chances are high that you are going to go to jail.

Kozmos · Apr 13, 2006

So if your COs gave you an order to blow the brains of some poor kid you would obey?Hooray for blind obidience.

Eran of Arcadia · Apr 13, 2006

Cleric said:
So if your COs gave you an order to blow the brains of some poor kid you would obey?Hooray for blind obidience.

No, but I would disobey knowing full well the fact that I was disobeying an order, and willing to accept whatever consequences resulted. I don't think I would get in trouble for not murdering someone, but refusing to deploy (especially for a doctor) is not the moral equivalent of murdering a civilian.

Xenocrates · Apr 13, 2006

Strange thing is he will get more symapthy from the loss than from a victory.

The guy who said that wars are neither legal or illegal is right; sadly. However in order to prove that the war was legal, the government will have to release it's legal advice.

The Government should release this anyway on the grounds that I want them to and there is no reason why they shouldn't.

Aside from the legallity of the war as a whole, resigning on the basis that the conduct of the war has been against the Geneva convention seems perfectly justified to me. In order to prove that the Geneva convention isn't being ignored the army would have to answer a lot of uncomfortable questions.

MobBoss · Apr 13, 2006

Cleric said:
So if your COs gave you an order to blow the brains of some poor kid you would obey?Hooray for blind obidience.

Sigh. Have you learned nothing in reading these threads? Such an order may be possibly illegal and thus the soldier does not have to follow it...in fact he is legally supposed to report such an illegal order.

Sidhe · Apr 13, 2006

MobBoss said:
Ding. Guilty verdict as I predicted. Little known fact: The military wins about 98.5 percent of all the court martials it does. If you are getting a court martial, chances are high that you are going to go to jail.

Does that mean it is 98.5% just or just 98.5% legal?

nonconformist · Apr 13, 2006

Noone mentioned it was his third tour in Iraq.

MobBoss · Apr 13, 2006

nonconformist said:
Noone mentioned it was his third tour in Iraq.

Third tour, first tour, tenth tour, doesnt matter. Disobey an order and you can still be court martialed for it.

Btw, the quote in your sig is nice, but the man who orginally said this is Michael Savage of talk radio.

EdwardTking · Apr 13, 2006

MobBoss said:
Ding. Guilty verdict as I predicted. Little known fact: The military wins about 98.5 percent of all the court martials it does. If you are getting a court martial, chances are high that you are going to go to jail.

Quite. I am not surprised either.

Doctors have a duty to treat patients (Hippocrates oath etc) and a later ruling that the war was illegal would not necessarily mean that a previous order to prepare to go to Iraq to treat patents was necessarily illegal.

However this may go to appeal, and who knows how an EU court would rule.

RAF doctor found guilty of disobeying orders to engage in 'illegal war'

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