GIII Beta

This month we're stepping down the mapsize a notch but ratcheting up the difficulty. The table in question is nice and empty, but hopefully not for long.

Not that anyone's ever asked, but keep in mind you don't have to win #1 on the table to win the Gauntlet. You just have to beat out the other submissions.

And without further delay, here are your current Gauntlet settings:
Difficulty: Demigod
Mapsize: Standard
Victory: Cultural 20k
Date Due: May 15th

I have try a non-sgl (the "Scientific Leaders" check off) game.

wow, 1800AD byz victory on island.

if this game become Gauntlet mean that no one else submit.

Immediately after I finally achieve all #1s in Machiavelli, Pentathlon, and Octathlon with a Demigod Standard 20K, people will be out to take two of them away from me! Guess I'll have to interrupt the quest for Sid to improve my score.

Interesting challenge. The level is high enough where the Russians might not be feasible. I dont really want to play Sumeria yet again, maybe the Babs?

I'm thinking Ottoman's on an arch map. Industrious cause I dont' wanna switch governments more than once and it gives a good shield bonus, scientific for the increased SGL %, arch to cut down on the tech pace amongst my rivals, at least at first.

I have given this a try and played a game as Sumeria until 520AD.
Despite the SCI-trait I have not seen a single SGL, which alone might disqualify from the competition here.
I did build a settler initially, and then exclusively cultural buildings (plus 1 curragh and 1 Enkidu) in this order: Palace (-3950), Colossus (-2310), Temple (-2110), Oracle (-1375), Lib (-1275), MoM (-975), Great Lib (-530), Great Light (-230, I missed out the HG here by 2 turns), Cathedral (+30), Colosseum (+110), Uni (+190), JS Bach (+510).
That leaves me with 3361 culture, growing at +59 per turn currently.

I´d like to know, is that somewhat respectable or am I wasting my time by playing on?

Twonky said:

I have given this a try and played a game as Sumeria until 520AD.

That leaves me with 3361 culture, growing at +59 per turn currently.

I´d like to know, is that somewhat respectable or am I wasting my time by playing on?

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For winning the gauntlet, I'd suspect you're wasting your time. It's certainly respectable though. For a vague comparison, I checked one set of saves I still have. At 520 AD, I was at ~4000 culture, +67. That finished up as a 1670 win. So at a rough guess, your game is looking at somewhere around 1750-1760. I forget which wonders are AGR, but I don't think you've triggered a GA yet? If not, that will help plenty. I think building MoM before GLib probably hurt you a lot, and I also think going all the way to Mil Trad before Free Artistry might hurt too. As does 24? turns for uni, cathedral, colosseum. That shouldn't take more than 10 turns total, ideally they take 1 turn each.

So far I've started one game, same problem with 0 sgl, My build times are similar to yours, I have colossus & temple at 2110BC, Oracle at 1300BC, 3 turns behind you. I think my production looks a bit better, I also think I'm going to be having a despotic GA.

Just looking at the screenie - it doesn't look like you have any hills in your borders, which will make it tough to compete in the gauntlet, unless a lot of those are BG's.

You could get better, if you catch an SGL for Shakespeares, which would allow you to grow a lot *and* gives you a nice culture boost.

On Demi-god, however, I suspect SGL's will be harder to come by than on, say, regent - where after the ancient age, you should be able to research nearly every tech yourself.

Twonky said:

I have given this a try and played a game as Sumeria until 520AD.
....Palace (-3950), Colossus (-2310), Temple (-2110), Oracle (-1375),

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amazing, I try many games and all lost Oracle

in my 1800AD attempt, i lost Oracle, pyramid, Zeus, light house, HG, MOM, Great wall, and Sunzi, Sistine in early MA.

sanabas said:

For winning the gauntlet, I'd suspect you're wasting your time.

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Yeah, that´s what I thought...

sanabas said:

I forget which wonders are AGR, but I don't think you've triggered a GA yet? If not, that will help plenty. I think building MoM before GLib probably hurt you a lot, and I also think going all the way to Mil Trad before Free Artistry might hurt too. As does 24? turns for uni, cathedral, colosseum. That shouldn't take more than 10 turns total, ideally they take 1 turn each.

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Indeed, I missed out on the GA until now. I have come to think that this is badly needed in the MA - I lost both Copes and Newtons, apparently to cascades of Leos/ Sun Tzu. As for the research, the AI is much stronger than me and had a very high tech pace. The GLib was very productive in giving me Chemistry, the rest was traded for. I wasted some time researching Astro, Physics, ToG for the precious wonders, but missed monopolies completely. PP and Demo were my only monopolies.
The long time it took me to get Cath/Uni/Col can partly be explained by the 7 turns of anarchy I had after completing the Great Lighthouse. I know that´s much too late, but the AI wouldn´t research Republic until very late.
Building the MoM early on the other hand was probably very good for me, as the AI got to Philo pretty quickly, while I held the Lit-monopoly for a long time.

AutomatedTeller said:

Just looking at the screenie - it doesn't look like you have any hills in your borders, which will make it tough to compete in the gauntlet, unless a lot of those are BG's.

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Yes, I was rather angry when I saw the iron hill just outside the city limits. There are some bg´s, but the total production on size 12 would be 22 shields, which is basically the same as 20. I feel like that is the minimum needed. In your experience, how much better would, say, 25 shields be?

archphoenix said:

amazing, I try many games and all lost Oracle

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That is probably so, because I chose civs that start without Alphabet and CB. I think I got to both techs as the first. IIrc, I selected Zulu, Mongol, America and China as enemies.

Thanks to all of you for your replies, I guess I´ll take another shot with another civ. SCI was no big help, maybe IND pays out better.

25 isn't a lot better than 22, but it means that a 600 shield wonder gets completed 24 turns, rather than 27 turns.

Scientific does help, but you kind of have to load the barrel, so to speak, and it may not help in every game. And if you aren't the tech leader, scientific only helps you keep up - doesn'thelp with SGL's.

Twonky said:

I wasted some time researching Astro, Physics, ToG for the precious wonders, but missed monopolies completely. PP and Demo were my only monopolies.

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I think this hurt a lot. The fast tech pace on DG makes it hard to get these. Shake'speares is more important than either Cope's or Newton's, and is easier to get as a monopoly, just hold on to your printing press and democracy monopolies as long as possible. I'll usually research Edu, Music Theory, PP, Demo, Free Artistry. Music theory is either a fall back if I lose Sistine, or as a prebuild for Shakespeare's. Sometimes I'll go Astronomy instead of Music theory, to do the same job. I tend not to get so far on the back of the great library, because I beeline for Edu and unis, so making a big push for ToG usually isn't even an option.

The long time it took me to get Cath/Uni/Col can partly be explained by the 7 turns of anarchy I had after completing the Great Lighthouse. I know that´s much too late, but the AI wouldn´t research Republic until very late.

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Ouch.

Yes, I was rather angry when I saw the iron hill just outside the city limits. There are some bg´s, but the total production on size 12 would be 22 shields, which is basically the same as 20. I feel like that is the minimum needed. In your experience, how much better would, say, 25 shields be?

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Makes a bit of difference, not a huge amount. Makes a lot of difference if you miss a wonder by only 1 or 2 turns. It hurts more after shake's & especially after RR. Also hurts because you have no flexibility, a good location will let you end by running a food deficit to temporarily boost shields. 20 is very low at size 12, 24-26 seems to be a decent amount. Looks like you planted forests to boost it, which is good.

That is probably so, because I chose civs that start without Alphabet and CB. I think I got to both techs as the first. IIrc, I selected Zulu, Mongol, America and China as enemies.

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I've been going with Zulu, Mongol, Inca & Aztec. I don't want Masonry appearing too early.

Thanks to all of you for your replies, I guess I´ll take another shot with another civ. SCI was no big help, maybe IND pays out better.

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I'd suggest Spain. seafaring will help explore, and starting with Alphabet is a big help. 2 turn anarchies rather than 7 helps a lot, as do the cheap buildings.

I've just submitted my first game. First two attempts were abandoned, one wasn't coastal, I missed Pyramids a couple of turns before philosophy, and had to waste shields, one I spent too long detouring for techs, and missed the free tech from philo, which also caused problems.

The one I submitted was as Babylon, a 1650 win. Coastal, 3 cow location, only 1 SGL all game, but at least it was early. I fell a long way behind on tech as I shared a big island with the Zulu, and the Aztecs had a big island too. Both of them ran away on tech & land a fair bit.

It's possible it won't qualify, real life got in the way a few times and the reload count will likely be very borderline up to 10AD.

Fairly sure I can get down below 1600 with a bit of luck though.

I gave this a go whilst testing my pc after (hopefully) fixing the problems I've been having with it recently.

I tried a couple of times on pangea with Babylon but the tech pace was far too fast and wonder cascades really hurt. I therefore tried some of the things suggested by sanabas, playing the Byzantines on an 80% water 'pelago map. This sorted out the tech pace and I managed a 1530AD finish, getting three SGLs in total.

I had both wines and ivory close to my capital so I took a risk by getting two settlers out of the capital before going for culture builds. I think it was worth it though as it helped with research as I needed to use the lux slider less than normal. With three cows in the capital's borders, it did not take long to regain the population. The Americans were nearby and I might well have lost one of these sites if I had waited for my second city to pump out a settler.

I got my GA soon after getting out of anarchy. My first SGL came with Lit and used him to rush the GLib and get my GA rolling. 40spt in the second half of the GA was very nice too!



Here's a list of all builds:

Beat me by 8 turns dagnammit (1570). Nice work. I'll post my build list once I open it up and write it down, I think your list indicates the importance of researching quickly. You built cathedral, uni & shake's far earlier than I did, I think that'll be where you pulled ahead. Otherwise, settings were almost the same, I went with 70% 'pelago as the Byzantines, Zulu, Inca, Aztecs & Mongols as the opponents. I had a few less shields to build with, and didn't get Ivory hooked up and SoZ built until around 100AD.

Time to play some more and get into the 1400s I think.

Here's a question:

Is it always better to be coastal and build collosus? Can it be better to be able to use all 20 tiles? You miss 3 potential wonders, including a good early one that can really help with commerce/research, but you can really crank up the build time for later wonders.

AutomatedTeller said:

Here's a question:

Is it always better to be coastal and build collosus? Can it be better to be able to use all 20 tiles? You miss 3 potential wonders, including a good early one that can really help with commerce/research, but you can really crank up the build time for later wonders.

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Definitely it can be better to use all 20 tiles. It's just a toss-up between tech pace, early wonders you can build, how fast you can build post-shake's, etc. On the lower levels, all 20 is probably better, as it's usually easy enough to out-research the AI, and always have builds available. If you go with a 'pelago map-type to keep research pace down and the AI's separated, then coastal is very useful. Some of the 20k dates in the HOF are inland (i.e. all of my Arab games, I think the few fastest overall dates as well), some are coastal, i.e. most of the demigod and above games I think.

AutomatedTeller said:

Is it always better to be coastal and build collosus? Can it be better to be able to use all 20 tiles? You miss 3 potential wonders, including a good early one that can really help with commerce/research, but you can really crank up the build time for later wonders.

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I'm not 100% sure but my gut feeling is that a coastal start is more advantageous. Early wonders are worth so much more than the latter ones and by the time you can utilise the thirteenth tile, the forecast finish date will probably not be reduced by very much. Colossus in particular is highly valuable in that it is cheap at 67spcp and given that it is built around the 2000BC mark, culture will quickly double. Also the best dates are going to be acheived with a fair degree of SGL luck, which is why I always prioritise research in these type of games. IMO high production is a bonus but when selecting a start; I first look for the majority of my capital's powerful tiles to be on a river. A couple of early SGLs will smash the dates that sanabas and I have gained so far.

I just wrote out the build lists for my 1650 Babs game, and the 1570 Byz game. Definitely think that the earlier research of education and free artistry made the difference, alongwith the slightly earlier ivory hookup. I had my first SGL at exactly the same time (1075BC, from Philo or Republic), but used it on the Oracle, not on the GLib.

I'm curious, who did you have for opponents, and what was your initial research path?

Anyway, my list of builds for the Babs:



And for the Byz:

sanabas said:

I'm curious, who did you have for opponents, and what was your initial research path?

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The more I look at that screenshot, the more I think that I was lucky to combine an early SGL with that start. Those pair of golden hills plus the other key tiles gaining additional commerce from the river really helped my fast research. Access to ivory is a great bonus. In this game I was also really lucky that the AIs were all separated by water that required the GLHouse or Astro for a non-seafaring civ to cross, so they could not benefit from the AI-AI trade bonus until it was far too late. The fast research may have helped a bit here but the weak AIs were the real factor IMO. I only had seven cities but I had a tech lead of more than half an era before I'd got into the IA and I never let it go. That's difficult to do for DG 20K games unless the AI is even more pathetic than usual.

For the record...
opponants: Americans, Incans, Mayans and the Zulu.
initial research path: CB>Myst>Writing>CoL>Phil>Lit. I only traded when I had multiple contacts and even then I kept it to a minimum. My view is the more SGL chances you get early on, the more successful you are likely to be.

I've just been trying some games where I have non-Mas civs and going for this tech first, rather than trading for it. It seems to be working well as I have handbuilt Colossus, Pyramids and Oracle in two games, but without an ancient SGL there is no way of getting towards a 1400s finish. One of these could have been a monster game as I had a standard production of 31 shields/turn @size 12 (44spt in GA) and four luxes on my island.

Tone said:

For the record...
opponants: Americans, Incans, Mayans and the Zulu.
initial research path: CB>Myst>Writing>CoL>Phil>Lit. I only traded when I had multiple contacts and even then I kept it to a minimum. My view is the more SGL chances you get early on, the more successful you are likely to be.

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Definitely agree with that. I assume you went lit over republic because philo gave you the SGL? 1075BC is the start of your GA off your build list, and at 800BC you're a republic and still in GA. Does that mean you revolted midway through your GA?

Agree on the AI analysis too, if you've hit philo around 1100BC, you're a bit lucky to make the slingshot. In fact, that was my main problem if I tried to detour to Mysticism, I'd miss the sling. I just went straight for philo and trusted the AI to research Mysticism and Masonry for me.

I've just been trying some games where I have non-Mas civs and going for this tech first, rather than trading for it. It seems to be working well as I have handbuilt Colossus, Pyramids and Oracle in two games, but without an ancient SGL there is no way of getting towards a 1400s finish. One of these could have been a monster game as I had a standard production of 31 shields/turn @size 12 (44spt in GA) and four luxes on my island.

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Very nice. I'm trying something different as well, going with Babylon on a pangaea vs the 4 non-alphabet SCI civs. I was getting fed up with the start of the IA making such a big impact. Get Fuedalism, and you have a prebuild for Sistine. Get monotheism, you have a quicker cathedral, and can hopefully have an AA prebuild for Sistine. Get Engineering, and things can get slightly ugly.