Referendum - Approve plan for Mongolian War

Citizens, please review the plan below for the Mongolian War. Then, vote if you find this plan acceptable or not.

Discussion thread

Plan:

robboo said:

This is the invasion and pillaging plans of Mongolia set to occur as soon as the units reach their rally points.

In the map below:
There are three rally points. The dots in the rally points are the maximum need units for an attack with little probablity of needing reinforcements..largely a questimate based on how old the cities are. However..the 2 squares with 4 can be used with 3 units( ax or swords). The green arrows after the capture of Old Sarai..are dependent upon which city needs the reinforcements...wont know that till we see whats in them and how the RNG treats us.


The pillaging plan...under my leadership..we want to pay for our war instead of having our citizens pay for it.

2 Chariots..Dark and light blue..will pillage the red squares first....not cutting roads except the roads between the Mogolian cities. The green dots are spearsmen (sentrys) and defenders. They will be used to defend and since the Mongolians only have archers...should be sutiable for defense. If the war goes long enough the chariots will pillage the farms around the southern city.

Click to expand...

If you review the discussion thread, you'll see various questions and answers from the Secretary of War (robboo) that may also be of use.

Options:

• Yes, I approve this war
• No, I do not approve this war
• Abstain, I have no preference

This poll will run for 3 days, and be public. If there are more Yes votes than No, the plans will be approved and instructions will be posted to Declare War when the SoW determines us to be ready according to this plan.

Thanks,
-- Ravensfire, Censor

It is a fine plan, and will teach those uppity Mongols for trying to settle in our jungle. We will need a second army of workers to consolidate on the land acquisition.

We can get much more from this war then this plan can give us. I vote against it.

Just as a warning..the plan MIGHT have a slight modification due to the settler produced. The goals will remain the same and the modification will only involve 1 or 2 units.

Does this modification need approval?( i have no idea what it is yet?)

RANT...This is why I hate having to have to get my plans approved. Now any variation from it makes it seem that I tried to "get away" with not following the citizens wishes. I request that we do not force the SoW hands in war plans approval ANYMORE. Last time I checked I as a citizen in a RL democracy have never been allowed to vote on my countries war plans NOR has Congress( citizens assembly analog). Now I feel this requirement to get my plans approved undemines and removes my elected mandate of being in charge of ALL military troop movement not just peace time troop movement.

VOTE yes so we can accomplish the goals I posted..of capturing the three cities. In my mind setting forth military goals for accomlishment SHOULD have been enough to approve or disapprove the war by teh citizens assembly. However..the censors wording on the declaration of war poll has handcuffed me to submit to getting my war plans approved. Frankly..I am insulted and feel my CoL derived powers have been taken from me.
//rant off. VOTE YES

I agree with ya Rob, we should have a little more faith in our SoW, and if we have to vote on everything he does, we'll never get things done.

Reguaring Rihiter's post, I agree with you, but I still favor rob's plan over yours. Again, I think we should merge the two plans somewhat, and of course, not have to vote on it.

The settler does not change my plan. It provides us with a target of opportunity to trainour troops on as it leaves teh city. Thanks Genghis.

The settler is still in the city and all of our troops can get to it unless it goes south into germany. The war would start 2 turns into the next TC.

//rant on

I'm very dissappointed that my effort to HELP the Secretary of War are so casually tossed aside and regarded as "interference".

I can assure the Secretary of War that this will NEVER happen again any time I hold the position of Censor. I will never ask the Assembly for approval of a war ahead of time. I will only request such approval until such time as the SoW has their plans ready.

I see that the ideas and goals of actually working together are anethema to the Secretary of War.

//rantoff

-- Ravensfire, Censor

RF
The early poll really wasnt needed. Many discussions were carried out , the CoL calls this a mandate I believe. These discussions had already prompted the governors and others to start war preps.

Now here we are and we are still having a poll on the eve of the TC to go to war. There is not a difference in this poll or a declaration of war poll. SO please explain to me what did the early approval for war poll do? Obviously nothing as the turn right after a DP built units as he is allowed to that do not meet the goals of war your poll approved. Obviously he did not follow the will of the people...why should I? He was elected the same as me.( Sorry Nobody about using your TC to prove my point...but as in PM we are cool so I hope you dont mind)

Show me one benefit to your early poll...oh yes I know it allows the citizens to grab power from the elected officials. Yes I know I wasnt elected since no one ran...but whose fault it that. Now everyone gets to approve how I carryout my duties to:

ravensfire said:

Nominations for the Office of Secretary of War

Duties of the Secretary of War:

• Control military land units
• Control air units
• All powers assigned to the Triumverate

Click to expand...

Whats next...want to have a poll to decide what each city shoudl build and take away the power of the governors. What about a poll to determine which JRs we should let the judges rule on. All of those remove power from an elected official and that is exactly what this poll does.

Never was I going to give orders during a TC so all of the orders could have been read and at the TCIT. I invite all officiasl to let their voices be heard...whats the use of officials if the have to have everything they do voted on. Lets just play a gaint SG and we poll everything.

robboo - you keep trying to take power from the people, and ignore them.

That's insulting to me, and I will not stand for it. If you cannot respect the citizens in this game, I will do everything in my power to force you to do so.

Your words here make my requirement that the plans be presented for approval more than justified.

-- Ravensfire, Censor

bull..show me where I ignored the people. The burden of proof is on you.

I have posted opinion polls and probably have started more discussion on what the people want than almost any other official in my 2 terms.

IF we have officials with duties then let then perform those duties. I noticed you were quick to defend a DP when they screwed up recently. Did he not take power from the people who voted for the officials and from the officials themselves. Where were you defending the citizens against that official( he was elected)?

We have a CoL that defines the operating principles of this game.

CoL said:

Article C - Decision Making

1. Power of the People
1. All decision making power within the Democracy Game is derived from the collective rights of all the citizens.
2. The Power of the People can be delegated to officials of the game in one or more of the following ways, or in other ways which may subsequently be discovered.
* By Mandate as evidenced in a citizen's selection to hold office via the elective process.
* By Constituency as evidenced by citizen comments in favor of a decision, in a public discussion.
* By Opinion Poll in the form of the results of a non-binding poll
* By Referendum in the form of an official, binding poll which has force over the current decision only.
* By Initiative in the form of a binding poll initiated by the citizenry, which has force over a current decision and future decisions of the same type
* By Recall of an official and selection of a replacement via election or appointment

Click to expand...

The power is delegated to me to move the units not to get prior approval to move the units.

I don't see any problem with a slight modification in the minutae of a war proposal, so long as the main objectives are met.

Robboo has been much more open to the public than someone like Rumsfeld, so I really don't see the need to escalate this matter any further.

For the record, I feel that this "initiative" business has been a huge reason for the drop in participation of this game. For one thing, no one seems to completely understand the guidelines or distinctions, including myself. For two, what fun is it for an elected official to carry out his duty when the people can set off a debate for even the most minor of alterations? It's no wonder that most elections are uncontested.....

If elected mandate is the lowest rung on the polling ladder, then why don't we deem ourselves one giant assembly and just vote on every move we make? Kind of like an interactive succession game?

If I have to deal with Bush and Co. with no viable sense of recourse, then why should we get to tie the hands of someone who has been as forthright as robboo?

Thanks DZ...I am just happy to see there are more who feel this is not a good way to go.

A poll that is more of an 'opinion poll', whereby you can see how many citizens agree with your plans, and how many do not. Then you (or your successor) as SoW can choose to act out militarily, or follow the wishes of the people.

We kinda already did that.

The fact that you don't think that your fellow citizen's should have a chance to approve how a war should be conducted alone makes the approval clause in my DoW poll worth oh so much.

Nobody wants to see every little decision detailed, such as the modification discussed. You have this odd desire to take EVERYTHING from the people, and gives us a few small crumbs. It doesn't work that way. You should be taking major decisions and efforts to the citizens. Anything that has potentialyl major impact on the game should be discussed and polled.

It keeps the citizens involved and can bring out more thoughts than just the discussion thread does. Heck, that first reason alone is worth polling major decisions.

But you'd prefer us citizens kept in the dark and feed small spoonfuls. Gimme my mushroom hat.

-- Ravensfire

ravensfire said:

The fact that you don't think that your fellow citizen's should have a chance to approve how a war should be conducted alone makes the approval clause in my DoW poll worth oh so much.

Nobody wants to see every little decision detailed, such as the modification discussed. You have this odd desire to take EVERYTHING from the people, and gives us a few small crumbs. It doesn't work that way. You should be taking major decisions and efforts to the citizens. Anything that has potentialyl major impact on the game should be discussed and polled.

It keeps the citizens involved and can bring out more thoughts than just the discussion thread does. Heck, that first reason alone is worth polling major decisions.

But you'd prefer us citizens kept in the dark and feed small spoonfuls. Gimme my mushroom hat.

-- Ravensfire

Click to expand...

RF:
I gather you feel that way, but my assessment of the situation is that all Rob wants is a little more power, to control going to war HIMSELF (after all, much as Bush is a sh** president, we can't get him out now can we?). These should act as only an opinion poll, and should the vote be a no, the SoW or other official (involved in a differant poll) has the power to veto these opinions, and impose his, perhaps with agreement from 1/3 or 1/2 government?

MS

I am done with this argument..poll away and I will DEMAND that the DP follow it as listed..to the letter with no flexiblity. And then I expect you as censor make sure that the citizens wishes are carried out...since they approved these plans only.

The last time I posted a poll..I got absolutely hammered because I posted it as an opinion poll. Therefore..even though I was trying to follow the citizens wishes..I decided not to post polls until I needed a legally binding poll.

AND as I have said before...I was going to post the rough plan BUT your poll has forced me to be very detailed because your requirement is very loose and open. I did not know what level of detail you want or the penalities I will face if I sway from them( and still dont )

I dont want to do something I didnt get approved because their are those in this game who would like nothing better than to have more JRs.

moonshine_MS said:

RF:
I gather you feel that way, but my assessment of the situation is that all Rob wants is a little more power, to control going to war HIMSELF (after all, much as Bush is a sh** president, we can't get him out now can we?). These should act as only an opinion poll, and should the vote be a no, the SoW or other official (involved in a differant poll) has the power to veto these opinions, and impose his, perhaps with agreement from 1/3 or 1/2 government?

MS

Click to expand...

I actually have that power..RF's poll and restrictions are trying to take that away. In other words..place that power in his hands as head of the citizens assembly. Its a power grab by a lower office, since the SoW is the third highest official in this game.( member of the Tri)

robboo said:

I actually have that power..RF's poll and restrictions are trying to take that away. In other words..place that power in his hands as head of the citizens assembly. Its a power grab by a lower office, since the SoW is the third highest official in this game.( member of the Tri)

Click to expand...

Therefore I will support your demand to the DP should it come down to an itty gritty fight

robboo said:

bull..show me where I ignored the people. The burden of proof is on you.

I have posted opinion polls and probably have started more discussion on what the people want than almost any other official in my 2 terms.

IF we have officials with duties then let then perform those duties. I noticed you were quick to defend a DP when they screwed up recently. Did he not take power from the people who voted for the officials and from the officials themselves. Where were you defending the citizens against that official( he was elected)?

We have a CoL that defines the operating principles of this game.


The power is delegated to me to move the units not to get prior approval to move the units.

Click to expand...

First off the quoted article is in the Constitution not the Col as you state.
The citizens have more power than elected officials, this is how the Constitution and CoL are set up. The constitution gives citizens the right to post polls (referendums and initiatives). The Code of Laws gives you your power. Constituion > Code of Laws

This is the way it is, if you so desire you can try to amend the Constitution