Logic behind the time restrictions for HOF

Sorry to start a new thread, but I haven't seen it be explained in other posts.

Why is there a 30 min minimum playing time limit for games to be accepted into the HOF, with 1 hour minimum being classes as 'better' etc?

What can happen in 29 mins that can't happen in 31?

I often have to stop and start games, just the way life is, and I'm probably not the only one.

I simply fail to see the logic of session time restrictions, but maybe I'm missing something.

Cheers

There's been a lot of confusion and privately submitted questions to us about that during the Beta, especially in relation to the half versus full hour. We're currently already reviewing that particular part of the HOF rules for overhaul and simplification for the permanent Hall of Fame.

Simply put for now, it's actually a holdover rule from HOF III that isn't quite as applicable and does need updating.

I'm afraid I can't speculate publically on the new wording/rationale just yet though, as exact wording matters greatly in a rules-oriented competition such as this.

I believe in HOF III and partially in this HOF it was used in order to avoid certain forms of cheating. As in you save a game, play for a little while, reload the save. However in this HOF I think there are other ways to read the info from loading saves in the save files submitted. Not sure on any details though, and I could be wrong all together

BoneCrusher,

Being a huge fan of saving/reloading to lose as few units as possible, I learned that not many people like to play like I do vs the imba bonuses the AI gets on deity difficulty. So Hall of Fame staff tries to restrict the number of times you can save/reload in a given time frame to accomplish what they call "fair play".

It might be a time waste, but a person could always play out same game on 2different machines with same moves and achieve the same effects of saving/reloading. Alternatively, you could take a half hour break after each stupid fight you lose and try a different move instead. The rules are there to stop the main crowd who don't go to cheating extremes, but I guess cheating is always possible with save/reloading.

I haven't heard anyone beating huge/terra map on deity difficulty, but I am almost about to dominate one with good save/reloading on my part. Very hard to beat stacks of doom with 3-4 units.

VirusMonster said:

So Hall of Fame staff tries to restrict the number of times you can save/reload in a given time frame to accomplish what they call "fair play".

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It's not a matter of sheer restriction. Replaying already done turns to alter events isn't tolerated, period.

VirusMonster said:

It might be a time waste, but a person could always play out same game on 2different machines with same moves and achieve the same effects of saving/reloading.

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Yes, it would be a time waste. We have ways of dealing with this one too.

GJ ultra cyber civ4 police

What I don't like about cheating prevention attempts is that the ones with authority think that they can prevent all methods of cheating, but unfortunately, it is impossible.

I could play the game on 2 virtual machines with the same configuration, same hardware IDs, same software IDs, practically an identical computer. I would then replicate my moves and the same effect of save/reloading.

I am not trying those extremes, but I say a person could load 2 copies of civ4on 2 virtual machines he made on his one single pc. To be honest, I don't see a way to detect it. If you have a way, tell me and I will shup up for one day on the forums I might even be a fan of your save/reload policy.

BUT, the problem with save/reloading is that you can't win a deity/terra/huge/marathon map by pure trusting on winning every battle you encounter. The AI outproduces you 3-4x; stacks will still kill your experienced units despite save/reloading. Additionally, you get insane upkeep costs that limit your expansive strategies. Basically, save/reloading has its uses, but upto a certain point. In multiplayer, you can't save/reload and that is where I think this game truly shines.

Could you also please explain why my civ4.exe keeps on changing each time I try save/reload a GOTM? What do you do to my PC without my knowledge? What is being changed when I reload the GOTM save too much?

VirusMonster said:

What I don't like about cheating prevention attempts is that the ones with authority think that they can prevent all methods of cheating, but unfortunately, it is impossible.

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I don't know if it's impossible, but that's not going to stop us from trying.

VirusMonster said:

To be honest, I don't see a way to detect it. If you have a way, tell me and I will shup up for one day on the forums I might even be a fan of your save/reload policy.

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For what reason would you want to know? Other than to develop a work-around?

VirusMonster said:

Could you also please explain why my civ4.exe keeps on changing each time I try save/reload a GOTM? What do you do to my PC without my knowledge? What is being changed when I reload the GOTM save too much?

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You'd have to ask the GOTM folks about that.

You should know there is no security through obscurity. Sooner or later someone determined is going to figure out how to save/reload with no problems, but until then you might be right

superslug said:

VirusMonster said:

Could you also please explain why my civ4.exe keeps on changing each time I try save/reload a GOTM? What do you do to my PC without my knowledge? What is being changed when I reload the GOTM save too much?

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You'd have to ask the GOTM folks about that.

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Sounds more like something you have to ask your local virus or anti-virus manufacturer about...
GOTMs so far not used any mods, so no way to change your exe file

VirusMonster said:

You should know there is no security through obscurity. Sooner or later someone determined is going to figure out how to save/reload with no problems, but until then you might be right

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It's true that security through obscurity doesn't work on a big juicy target, like, say, the Windows operating system. For something as small as the HoF, it probably doesn't hurt. How many people really come here to compete? What are the rewards of cheating? The answers are: not very many, and not much, respectively, and obscurity may help keep the honest people honest.

Also, there is only one method of security with game playing that can even remotely be called secure, and that's server-side encryption. If everything in the game happens on the server, and not your local machine, your system can be pretty darn secure.

If the local machine makes all the decisions, there is no such thing as fool-proof security, even if your CPU has encryption, it's in your house so it can be broken.

So, since security in this case is actually impossible, obscurity at least will raise the bar a little bit, keeping the casual hackers at bay. If someone is extremely determined, they will cheat and there's nothing that can be done to prevent it.

But look at it this way: perhaps a hacker figures out some of the protections, but not all of them, and submits a game where he/she cheated. Now that this has been detected, they can be banned from the HoF for life. It's not like hacking into a bank, where, if you get in and get some money, you know you were successful. In this competition, there's no way to guage your success except for whether you get caught.

VirusMonster said:

I haven't heard anyone beating huge/terra map on deity difficulty, but I am almost about to dominate one with good save/reloading on my part. Very hard to beat stacks of doom with 3-4 units.

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Even if you are able to accomplish your domination, I still will not have heard of anyone beating a huge/terra map on deity. Save/reload is not beating the game.

I don't have an issue with people who save/reload... you paid for the game, do whatever floats your boat. Just don't post claims about winning on deity...

Sup Gyathaar,

It just so happened that the day I was playing both GOTM, April and May, my firewall alerted me that a change had happened in one of the civ4 files(I think it was civ4.exe). I was suspicious whether it had anything to do with the Gotm, because it happened after I repeatedly save/reloaded to not lose a specific unit. I tried to play a game without save/reloading but could not stop myself from loading so I am not submitting any GOTM. I guess I have an addiction for optimization and minimal battle causalities.

Hawk,

I am gonna write a strategy article of my deity win soon. I claim to have beaten deity level and unlike some who entered beta HOF with cheesy tactics I am being %100 open in what I use, when I use, and why I think it is fairplay. People can decide themselves if they want to enjoy the game my way. I am sure there will be some people interested in hearing how I beat deity/huge terra map with some save/reloading.

VirusMonster said:

I am gonna write a strategy article of my deity win soon. I claim to have beaten deity level and unlike some who entered beta HOF with cheesy tactics I am being %100 open in what I use, when I use, and why I think it is fairplay. People can decide themselves if they want to enjoy the game my way. I am sure there will be some people interested in hearing how I beat deity/huge terra map with some save/reloading.

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You talk big but where's you submission? If you beat the game with reloading by playing the past, you don't beat the game. Why don't you just use worldbuilder since you still cheat?

Kalleyao said:

You talk big but where's you submission? If you beat the game with reloading by playing the past, you don't beat the game. Why don't you just use worldbuilder since you still cheat?

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The AI cheats on deity too. As long as he didn't do anything egregious like reload before popping huts until they gave him Ironworking or something like that, I'm interested to read his account. I could still learn something, that's all I care about. I don't reload, so I don't play Deity. Yet.

Remo, I am being open where use reloading in my article. I don't submit my games to GOTM where I violate HOF rules. I still think I am a good player on my scale and have my unique ideas about civ4.

You can look up the article on the strategy forum. I think it is going to revolutionarize the way huge deity maps are played.

I learn a lot through save/reloading than I do through restarting the game, because you learn more through correction of your mistakes than a clean restart. I forget stuff, then reload to correct my mistakes. I sometimes don't want to lose a specific upgraded unit who has %80+ winning chances and loses battle. Today I save reloaded, because I realized I should not have attacked a specific civ, because after capturing his cities, his neighbour's cultural influence would flip the cities away from me So all the fighting was vain. I reloaded, but I learned something. That is what counts in the end i think.

AI is biggest cheater, actually Firaxis cheats us by giving us crappy AI with imba bonuses and you guys blame me

VirusMonster said:

Sup Gyathaar,

It just so happened that the day I was playing both GOTM, April and May, my firewall alerted me that a change had happened in one of the civ4 files(I think it was civ4.exe). I was suspicious whether it had anything to do with the Gotm, because it happened after I repeatedly save/reloaded to not lose a specific unit. I tried to play a game without save/reloading but could not stop myself from loading so I am not submitting any GOTM. I guess I have an addiction for optimization and minimal battle causalities.

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Well.. the only file the gotm saves could possibly change is the civilizationIV.ini file (because civ4 change some settings in it depending on the settings in the save)... any other changes has to be caused by something else.. most likely a virus.

I will investigate. ty

RemoWilliams said:

The AI cheats on deity too. As long as he didn't do anything egregious like reload before popping huts until they gave him Ironworking or something like that, I'm interested to read his account. I could still learn something, that's all I care about. I don't reload, so I don't play Deity. Yet.

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Reload to get better results from battle is like reload to get better result from hut. If you want a "legal" game just look at that Deity conquest on large by Shadowsong. That's a game I'd like to a writeup on.

VirusMonster said:

AI is biggest cheater, actually Firaxis cheats us by giving us crappy AI with imba bonuses and you guys blame me

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I don't blame you for being creative with you strat but I don't think the AI bonus is unfair. The player gets similar bonuses on Settler, that's why you should play the level that fits you.

Kalleyao said:

I don't blame you for being creative with you strat but I don't think the AI bonus is unfair. The player gets similar bonuses on Settler, that's why you should play the level that fits you.

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I agree with you completely. While we all look for favorable start locations, and will abandon games early for missing something key to our strategy, I find it unethical (?) to rely on:

VirusMonster said:

I never attacked with 5, I usually attack with 4. I take a half hour break if my best quechua dies and reload again AI archers stand still and wait their death Brave soldiers.

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http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169930

Regenerating maps to get the strategic start you want doesn't mean you automatically win. Abandoning a game after a failed wonder build is still a failed game. Purposefully attempting to circumvent the letter AND spirit of the Hall of Fame by basing your strategy upon reloading until you win means you you're playing a predetermined story and not playing a game.

I have no gripes with reloading as a strategy in casual games, but here I'd like to think the participants are rolling with the punches and not relying on winning a 12% combat.