using chariots to stifle your opponents?

I'm wondering if anyone has done this:

--get anhusb asap.

--secure horses

--crank chariots like you would axes if you were axerushing

--send your chariots into two opponents' territories in the spirit of rex

--don't worry about tearing down their cities, just snipe workers and prevent them from being able to develop *anything* including new settlers.

--try to hit them before they have copper hooked up so you don't have to worry about spears, but if they hooked up copper, pillage it (the ai doesn't usually have spears sitting on their copper)

--from there you basically just stifle them, they can't *do* anything (except maybe *try* to pick off your chariots with archers, not easy though

--then you bee-line to swords and catas and just conquer them at your leisure

If you think this would work, what level do think it would work up to? I currently play prince, but I haven't really tried it out yet. Just thinking about it...

Sounds good in theory. I hate chariots myself.
A perpetual state of war doesn't sound too good though

I only like chariots when I'm boxed in without copper, and need something to attack with early. Or when I'm playing Egypt.

Eh, try doing this with the Keshik

You can cripple 5 civs using that strategy so that all they can build is warriors and archers. Against a Keshik, the archer has about a 0.2% chance of success

I have used this strategy to completly cripple all the civs on the map. You use a few Keshiks to monitor the iron, horse, copper and ivory resources all over the map and they can't do anything about it. By pillaging everything, they advance slowly so it takes them a long time to get to Fudalism (longbowmen). If they have a spearmen or two, keep two Keshiks close to gether, if one gets picked off, use your other Keshik to kill the spearmen once and for all. The speed of the Keshik is unmatched, nothing can catch it so you can move it in and out where needed. The speed also allows you to race across the map fast.

The problem with this strategy is how boring it gets after you essentially conquer without actually conquering, so to speak. Once you have control of all the resources and the civs have lost their axemen, swordsmen, chariots, spearmen, etc, you've pretty much got it in the bag. Its just a matter of cleaning up afterwards.

You could probably do this with the Horse Archer, allthough you wont have the massive terrian movement bonus that the Keshiks get, but it still should be next to 'impossible' for an archer to kill it. The only problem I see with the Chariot is that they have less strength and thus would be prone to getting picked off by a couple of archers.

Watiggi

it wouldn't be a perpetual state of war (depends on your settings i guess)...

you could even follow it up with axes instead of sword-cata if you don't want the war to last that long. it would make it a lot easier for your axes in the sense that the cities have been stifled and all they have to do is the mop-up.

you would still probably need at least catas for the capitals (if not, then no worries, but i don't like to lose units if i can help it), but you could clear out their other cities quite nicely methinks.

i don't know why people don't use chariots more. they have higher movement than axes so they get there faster and they can leave enemy cities stripped bare and under duress much easier than axes can, who can really only come in in a stack and take the city.

i dunno, maybe axe rush will always rule the day, but i'd like to see more discussion about other possible options.

Watiggi said:

Eh, try doing this with the Keshik

You can cripple 5 civs using that strategy so that all they can build is warriors and archers. Against a Keshik, the arch has about a 0.2% chance of success

I have used this strategy to completly cripple all the civs on the map. You use a few Keshiks to monitor the iron, horse, copper and ivory resources all over the map and they can't do anything about it. By pillaging everything, they advance slowly so it takes them a long time to get to Fudalism (longbowmen). If they have a spearmen or two, keep two Keshiks close to gether, if one gets picked off, use your other Keshik to kill the spearmen once and for all.

The problem with this strategy is how boring it gets after you essentially conquer without actually conquering, so to speak. Once you have control of all the resources and the civs have lost their axemen, swordsmen, chariots, spearmen, etc, you've pretty much got it in the bag. Its just a matter of cleaning up afterwards.

Watiggi

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HA! cool! I don't call that boring, to me I love the mop-up once I know I've won. That's the best part of it all

futurehermit said:

i don't know why people don't use chariots more. they have higher movement than axes so they get there faster and they can leave enemy cities stripped bare and under duress much easier than axes can, who can really only come in in a stack and take the city...

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I’m agree, I only add:

With barracks (4 XP), a chariot with flanking I (30% withdraw) need only 1 successful battle (or 1 withdraw) to get flanking II (50% withdraw + Immune to First Strike). After that, they can win (or withdraw) almost all battles with warriors and archers.

Compare:

War Chariots vs Axemans
25 vs 35
(5 + 2 + 20% withdraw + Immune to first strike) vs (5 + 50% vs melee)

Immortals vs Axemans
25 vs 35
(4 + + 2 30% withdraw + 50% vs archery + receive def bonus) vs (5 + 50% vs melee)

Axemen don't need withdraw since they win more often than not, especially against cities since they can get city raider promotions. While they are slow, axemen can stick to forests and hills for extra defense, something mounted units can't do. Oftentimes, the AI won't even bother to attack a stack of axes, whereas if a chariot gets in range of a city, you can bet a spearman will come out to greet it.

That’s what I do with Incas all the time. If you have a neighbor you know you'll have to war sooner or later anyway (monty, alex, toku), sending 1,2 quenches will dead stop their expansion. They wont be able to do anything, while you gather up axmen , whatever, and just kill them off. In this case, being in a prolonged state of war at the beginning with other civ(s) is not really an issue.

I used to play the green mod with the old patch. I also used to play with reging barbs on emperor level. These barbs had chariots as well as warriors and archers, later they got horse archers.
The point is that it was a knightmare learning to defend my cities, my settlers, my workers and my terrain improvements from the chariots.
Therefore I think it would be a sound tactic, I also think I would pair up chariots to ensure less defeats from archers.

The only civ i think you would have big problems with is Mansa as his skirmisher is a superb counter against the chariot which doesn't need resources to build. Watch out for the jaguar as well!

Immortals are much better than keshiks for this purpose. They get a defensive bonus (park them on a forest hill and fortify for a super-cheap 8 strength unit), not to mention the 50% bonus versus archers.

The chariot is a cheap unit and it can come realy early you only need the Wheal and AH to get it.
Fot axes you need Wheal, Mining and BW. Wheal is necesary to hook up the copper.
I thinc the Chariots are very good for an early war. But you would need too many chariots to conquer a flatland city defended by archers. However, 4-5 chariots with 2 promotions could take new cities defended by no more then 2 archers, slowing the opponent.
It could be a good tool to get to copper if you don't have any but the AI just placed a city there.
Chariots are good for defence too. In early time, especialy if you play with raging barbarians, mobility is the key. Striking barbarian archers and warriors in the open terrain with your chariots could be a good defensive tactic.

Chariots (and especially Egyptian War Chariots) are a viable option in some circumstances. I've wiped civs on Emperor using just chariots and archers before getting hold of some metals.

Here's a good example played using largely War Chariots in the early part of the game.

DementedAvenger said:

Immortals are much better than keshiks for this purpose. They get a defensive bonus (park them on a forest hill and fortify for a super-cheap 8 strength unit), not to mention the 50% bonus versus archers.

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Keshiks don't need the bonus because an archer gets such a small chance of success of winning against a Keshik (0.2% depending on promotions). Warriors "don't" (dare I say) have a chance at all.

I guess the Immortal, with it's bonus against archers would be more effective at holding the resource, but I would prefer the Keshik for its speed advantage....

acidsatyr said:

That’s what I do with Incas all the time. If you have a neighbor you know you'll have to war sooner or later anyway (monty, alex, toku), sending 1,2 quenches will dead stop their expansion. They wont be able to do anything, while you gather up axmen , whatever, and just kill them off. In this case, being in a prolonged state of war at the beginning with other civ(s) is not really an issue.

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...the beauty about Keshiks is that you can do the same thing to 5-7 civs at once (depending on how big you decide to have your army) with minimal amount of Keshiks because of the Keshiks speed over any terrain.

Watiggi

If you have enough chariots, you can even go ahead and hit the cities. With the withdraw ability, sometimes you can get zero losses to take down a city. On top of that, any surprise win will get you ALOT of XP (I think I got 8XP). Do expect a number of losses in general though. But then, they are cheap anyway.

Additionally, AI will be dumb enough to continue to build settler while even in such early war (as long as there is still land to grab) and send their archers + settler out. Watch for those and hit as necessary.

This does sound like a good idea. I hate chariots as well, so I would probably try it with immortals.

why so little love for chariots? i'm trying to strategize ways to get rarely-used ancient units into play.

if more people used chariots then more people would use spears in defense and then you get two rarely used units into play more often

i think i'll try this out some more next game.

i'm currently finishing a t-rex (tokugawa rapid expansion) game where i'm rolling over my continent with axes (they are so incredibly op...) and am about to upgrade to samurai (heh...). should have my own continent (started with 3ai + me) pretty soon and then steamroll the other continent for a pretty darn easy domination win (prince, continents).

I am playing my first immortal game as Egypt on a standard map, normal speed. So far I have eliminated Napolean and crippled Rome to one poor city following a rush with 100% war chariots. I think I still have time to cripple one more civ before my chariots will be obsolete.

My strategy was to build a worker to irrigate my FP and rice grassland tiles, to corral my horses (in capital radius! -researched AH first) while I research mining and then writing and alphabet. Basically I build a barracks and churn war chariots. I promote them to flanking II on wandering barbs (normal setting) and mass 6-8 to begin siezing neighboring cities (AI built pretty close to my capitol).

Worked like a charm. I am now a huge fan of egypt, although I would like to try Persia and the Immortal UU. I really like the speed of the chariots- can move from rear production cities to frontline twice as fast, their cheapness to produce (every other turn from size 4 cities), and the 50% withdrawl rate with 2 promotions. Only costs me 1 or 2 chariots per city defended by 2-3 archers. When swords and axes appear in significant numbers, I'll sacrifice all but my most highly promoted units on a juicy AI city to take it, sue for peace, and get my unit maintenance down to a reasonable level. really good fun!

Yeah the war chariots are awesome, and quicker to get than axes, assuming you do have horses within easy reach. To hit a city with high culture defense, I like to give some flanking which I attack with first, then follow up with combat promo chariots. The first ones have a decent chance to live, then your combat chariots mop up the injured units with ease.

When swords and axes appear in significant numbers, I'll sacrifice all but my most highly promoted units on a juicy AI city to take it, sue for peace, and get my unit maintenance down to a reasonable level. really good fun!

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Alternatively, you could pillage the metals and continue on your quest for domination. First send in a short stack of axe/axe /spear/chariot and you can usually make it to the resource to pillage, before you send in the chariots. You don't really have to stop until they get longbows.

I've always liked the look of war chariots but Egypt's traits are crap for early warmongering. No aggressive for cheap barracks. No organized to keep city maintenance down. No financial to pay for maintenance and unit support. Don't you quickly bankrupt yourself after you take the first couple AI cities? That has traditionally been my problem with early warfare. And the earlier you fight, the worse the problem is.