The ability to Demand Tribute right from the begining of the game.

There needs to be a way in which an aggressive player (or an aggressive AI) can demand tribute right from the begining of the game. Currently, you have to wait until you get Alphabet until you can start making demands - and even then all you can demand is tech.

I think there should be a generic "I demand that you pay tribute to me" button in the middle bottom of the screen. Apart from being there through all early diplomacy, this button should exist as a third option when you first encounter them so that you can accept peace, go to war or demand tribute which results in peace but with unsteady relations. Initially the tribute will be only some gold or some leverage (non currency) and will be more symbolic than of anything substantial - even though currency hasn't been discovered. Most importantly it will allow the aggressive civs to impose themselves on their neighbours right away. I was rather surprised that I couldn't demand something from my neighbour for so long. It felt strange. And as such, my peaceful relations went up when in actuallity I wanted him to know where he stood with me. The only thing I could do is attack him. I didn't have a problem with him being there provided he gave a tribute - but I couldn't ask!!

It would be wonderful if something like this was put into the Warlords expansion. It would allow relations to go sour quickly if tribute is demanded. As such, war and diplomatic division would start earlier. Right now, there is too much peace that builds up relations and as such, it takes a while for relations to go sour and so it takes a while for the aggressive civs to go to war. I find that because the aggressive leaders AI focuses on military, they loose out because they don't go to war early. In the end they end up too backwards.

As for the human side of it. It feels strange being an aggressive leader and not being able to demand tribute from my neighbours until I get certain techs, which can take a while to get.

Watiggi

Can't you demand trade goods if you have a route with them?

Good point - I forgot about the resources. But that doesn't help when you first encounter them. My thinking is that an aggressive civ should be able to 'assert' themselves at the moment of contact. The tribute will be more symbolic than anything because the appropriate techs haven't been found yet - all though I don't see any reason why tribute demands can't be anything. The button should only allow you to demand tribute, but not be able to choose what to demand until you get the appropriate techs. What they give you is up to them. Maybe, by giving tribute to you, you are prevented from going to war for 10 turns or something (and the amount that you get has an equivalent value of ten turns of peace).

Once a trade route has been connected, then yeah, I think resources can be demanded. But that can take a while to set up (ie, building road network). If you could demand cities, then it would be something, but they are usually red at the begining (surprise, surprise).

It would just make the early game development smoother for the aggressive civs. The Aggressive civs loose out in the begining because there is more chance of niceness than not.

Watiggi

So, you want the option to worsen your relations with another civ for no reason?

No, an option to demand tribute from another leader right from the begining of the game. Because you can't trade tech or gold until the appropriate techs, it should just allow you to demand tribute. What they give you is their business.

An example. You are playing a new game, you meet your first leader and you get the peace or war choice. If you were to also have a 'Demand Tribute' option, you could receive some gold for 10 turns of peace (forced peace). After 10 turns, you could demand tribute for a further 10 turns, etc. Each demand should reduce their opinion of you ("you made an arrogant demand"), but will hold off on war if you are more powerful than they are. Likewise, the aggressive AI's can do this too.

It just doesn't feel right the way it is. You can only go for peace or war and allthough aggressive civs in history tolerated other civs presence provided they paid a tribute, you can't do that here until Currency, Alphabet or when trading occurs. All it should require is a military and a will to demand tribute - nothing more.

Watiggi

You're missing the point of the trade limitations. You can't trade gold before currency because, before currency, everything is a barter system (ie resource trading). You can't trade techs before alphabet because the systems behind the techs are too complex to be trusted to memory (at least among traders; your civ keeps the tech because its people are trained in it from birth) and the lack of a phonetic alphabet prevents the more abstract terms from being recorded. These things would not simply evaporate if the other guy was demanding something.

True, but you don't need a tech to be able to demand a tribute. The idea of demanding tribute came long before technology, alphabet, currency, etc. They would take what they wanted and nothing could be done. Demanding tribute is more about human nature - not about trading and the technology required to facilitate trade.

Watiggi

All I'm saying is: What exactly could you demand? There's nothing you could acquire that would make a difference in game turns. You'd pretty much get nothing but slaves and concubines from them, and those aren't modelled in the game.

Now, if the game were to implement a unit trading system that allowed units to be placed on the bargaining table (eg "Send us 5 Workers in the next 10 turns or face our wrath!"), this idea would have some merit. As of right now, however, there's nothing tangible to demand.

Good points...and a nice solution

You can take cities in the begining but they are all (surprise, surprise) redded out. Maybe if they were not redded out and there was something that prevented the aggressor from attacking after getting the city, then that might work. For instance, if they give you the city, you give peace in return for x number of turns - relative to the value of the city. I don't know though.

It would be better if they were capable of giving smaller things. Maybe a population point (to represent slaves) or stuff inside the city. Maybe reduce some hammers that have been put into the city production, ie loose 10 hammers from the current Archer production or something. Early on that would be ok until trade comes.

Either way, something has to change, because 1) the Aggressive civs become outdated because they build their military and don't use it 2) you can't be aggressive apart from attacking them before trading exists (which completely bypasses the point of diplomacy) and 3) It just doesn't feel right not being able to demand tribute early in the game (and for an early aggressive strategy, Alphabet and Currency may never be researched at all). I don't see demanding tribute as having anything to do with trade or technology at all. It is a military thing: I take, you give...now!

Nice ideas though

Watiggi

The older civs were like this. First meeting screen with the Babylonians and it might say 'Give us 50 gold or face our wrath!!', if you declined they'd either accept it or they'd declare war on you. And you could put the same demands on them. Now the player gets the choice of Peace or War and the AI accepts peace 100% of the time. Was far more interesting opening to the game with these posibilities, the way it is now you don't even need to build a military unit until writing, cos it's pretty much impossible for anyone to get mad at you until you have it! The only wars pre-writing are player initiated.

How about just a "I don't like you and I want to piss you off" button?

Mewtarthio said:

All I'm saying is: What exactly could you demand? There's nothing you could acquire that would make a difference in game turns. You'd pretty much get nothing but slaves and concubines from them, and those aren't modelled in the game.

Now, if the game were to implement a unit trading system that allowed units to be placed on the bargaining table (eg "Send us 5 Workers in the next 10 turns or face our wrath!"), this idea would have some merit. As of right now, however, there's nothing tangible to demand.

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Lets not forget that so early in the game, when you first meet Civ, your demands for tribute won't mean much unless you already have a huge military when you meet them(island map). SO demanding tribute to a guy you just kmet in the 3;rd turn would and should end up with him refuseing. So bascicly you just got off to a bad start with a neiber and he might end up kicking your ass.

In an example, if you meet 5 civs and demand tribute from them all, they are probebly going to ally against you sooner or later, and early game it's hard to hold back a 2-1.