ALC Game #3: China/Qin

Pre-Game Thread

And we're off!

It did occur to me that, with this being Victoria Day and all, I probably should be starting my Vicky game. But we'll get there.

(Why, yes, I AM Canadian. How astute of you.)

Whoops, almost forgot the obligatory explanation blurb. The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that I'm going to play a game with each of the less-frequently used Civ IV leaders on my current difficulty level, Prince. I will post the saved game files, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses. This gives everyone a chance to play armchair quarterback and generally swap strategy ideas and see how they play out.

Here's a snapshot of the game settings for those of you who are wondering:



And here is the starting position:



Interesting, eh? (Ah-ha! More evidence of Canuckhood...) Three Calendar resources, an AH resource, fresh water, a lake, lots of river tiles (gotta love those when you're Financial), and even a couple of hills. Not bad, not great. Doable.

Going by the resource pointers, I'm north of the equator, but since I see jungle, I'm guessing not by much.

Hmmm, jungle--get iron-working, chop it, farm it, and bingo! Instant GP farm. Too bad Qin's not Philosophical. This would have been one heckuva start for the Mao game. Maybe I should try to go after the Parthenon.

Well, I'd better not get ahead of myself.

Since I'm not too concerned with founding an early religion, it may be worthwhile to burn a turn while both units have a look around. I'm thinking of sending the Settler up that hill that's due west while the Warrior heads to the one that's two tiles southwest. Or should I go north? There's an AI-approved blue circle up there. Ya gotta wonder what's up there besides a few cows. The problem is those forests and the lake mean it will take a couple of turns to get up there for a good look.

I gotta be honest, Calendar resources don't thrill me. They don't really come on-line until mid-game, and if you build Stonehenge--which I'm fond of doing--you're reluctant to research or trade for the tech that makes it obsolete. I'm just as happy to put Caledar resources in the third or fourth ring so they're available to the civ as a whole, but then I don't have to worry about them in the fat cross.

So, over to you folks. The first few moves are so very important. Many of you have suggested somewhat counter-intuitive strategies to use with Qin, so I'll probably restrain myself to fewer moves and check in here more frequently to see what everyone thinks.

Almost forgot the saved game file:

You should have upped the dificulty. I feel that current allredy to easy for you, so you are not learning mach.

Well the spot is SWEET! No doubt about it you can start right there and then. 4 good resources, production hills, enough forests and a river, what else do you want?

I would move the warrior either SW or NE to clear some of the fog seeing if you can even get a better start but I doubt it.

With all the sugar Beijing is going to be a good science/currency city. Good chance of getting to a tech lead, but space victory was already done in your former thread so new challenge? Maybe a cultural one and that without being creative?

I've been spending too much time on the forum and not enough time playing so I think I'll ghost this one.

Sisiutil said:

Since I'm not too concerned with founding an early religion, it may be worthwhile to burn a turn while both units have a look around. I'm thinking of sending the Settler up that hill that's due west while the Warrior heads to the one that's two tiles southwest. Or should I go north? There's an AI-approved blue circle up there.

Click to expand...

That probably means it's one tile off the coast.

I have to admit, the hill would never occur to me.

Much depends on which way you are thinking about going at first. Cows are a huge deal, but if Animal Husbandry isn't on your hurry list, then maybe they can fend for themselves until city #2.

On the other hand, Ironworking is on your hot list, so moving toward the jungle doesn't worry me so much.

And given that you are financial, doesn't it make sense to move toward the river, rather than away from it?

Sisiutil said:

I gotta be honest, Calendar resources don't thrill me. They don't really come on-line until mid-game, and if you build Stonehenge--which I'm fond of doing--you're reluctant to research or trade for the tech that makes it obsolete. I'm just as happy to put Caledar resources in the third or fourth ring so they're available to the civ as a whole, but then I don't have to worry about them in the fat cross.

Click to expand...

Hmm, I think the Henge is a little too prominent in your consciousness for the moment. But Sugar is pretty much meh - A sugar plantation is essentially equivalent to a floodplains farm. Since Calendar isn't on the strategic radar anyway, I'd ignore the resource implications of the sugar, and just treat it as free food for the moment.

My solution here would be to move the Warrior NE (expose those dark tiles that would be in the fat cross). If nothing dramatic appears, I'd be inclined to send the settler toward the river. Either S, then SW if you are willing to deal with the health implications of the jungle, or SW to take stock of what is hidden in the dark, and if you like what you see settle immediately (fresh water, plus 7 river tiles), or turn SW (ending up 2 S of where you started), picking up 10 river tiles once the jungle is cleared.

My hunch, based on the way strategic resources get distributed, is that your best spot will likely be the river corner SW of the settlers present location.

If you do settle southward, the warrior should continue scouting toward the north - get some idea of where you want to put the city that will work the cows (my guess - two tiles NE of the lake), and find the Civ that is to the north of you on this continent.

I thought Qin is quite a popular choice? I think you should've chosen an expansive civ instead to qualify the world "challenge" with the general public. Many people consider Financial a big crutch.

Having said that, I really appreciate the trick of looking at the resource pointers now. Thanks for telling me.

You can say that sugar is pretty meh, but you have 3 of them which would result in the possibility of trading 2 good other resources. Ok, maybe not the best resource for your capitol but something like 4 food and 3 coins is never bad (4 with financial if I am not mistaken). If you are not going for stonehenge then calendar is no problem at all. You can get is pretty easily by trading.

I would think move settler down south one and build if its not bad spot simply to have the extra woods to chop and you would not lose a turn on the science studie.

Plus it looks like you would pick up to more green hills I my self like my main city to be more about production. Plus you start out with mining as chinese.

Im not sure how you know or just think you are north but if you do I would think that you would send your warrior south. I have no clue really. Because if you are not north then i certainly would go explore that darkness to the northeast.

I thought Qin is quite a popular choice?

Click to expand...

I have not tried Qin but I was also under the impression from these forms he was very good leader with a nice UU aswell.

Nanzook said:

Im not sure how you know or just think you are north

Click to expand...

Resource arrows point toward the equator

aelf said:

I thought Qin is quite a popular choice? I think you should've chosen an expansive civ instead to qualify the world "challenge" with the general public. Many people consider Financial a big crutch.

Having said that, I really appreciate the trick of looking at the resource pointers now. Thanks for telling me.

Click to expand...

It seems the critics are becomming more vocal about their dislikes of the ground rules of the ALC.

TO ALL CRITICS: IF YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING SISIUTIL IS DOING HERE, DON'T READ THE THREAD.

Please continue, Sisitutil.

How can you have an All Leaders Challenge if you leave out the financial ones? But yes, Sisutil keep up the good work. Love these threads.

Fetch said:

It seems the critics are becomming more vocal about their dislikes of the ground rules of the ALC.

TO ALL CRITICS: IF YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING SISIUTIL IS DOING HERE, DON'T READ THE THREAD.

Please continue, Sisitutil.

Click to expand...

Wow, I didn't insult a country or religion, right? I wasn't even criticising. I just stated my opinion. I focused on the word 'Challenge', the meaning of which I may have mistook. But the choice of Monty and Mao before this seem to have confirmed what I thought.

Of course, now that it has begun on Qin, by all means continue.

VoiceOfUnreason said:

Resource arrows point toward the equator

Click to expand...

Hah, I never knew that learn something new everday.
Thx...

Mabye I should read the manual again. But its soooo boring. Any how dont mean to get off the subject.

The map generation algorithm has its built in biases that make the starting locations extra good. Since your settler is currently standing on forest, that means if he decides to go have a look around, it will take him another extra turn if he decides to go back to where he started. You're likely to be wasting two turns only to look around and find out you were already in the best spot. I'd probably found on turn 1 in this situation.

When I see jungle, I think commerce/science, especially if I'm playing a financial leader. Of course, you're right, it's also good for a GP farm, but you really only need one of those. I'm think you're likely to have several high gold cities. This might turn out be your cultural victory game.

If you settle in place, Beijing is going to be somewhat food rich. I think I count +9 from the cows, sugar, and city center and -3 from the hills for a net of +6. You might want to consider building some workshops for early production and/or putting a cottage instead of a plantation on one or two of the sugar tiles.

Mutineer said:

You should have upped the dificulty. I feel that current allredy to easy for you, so you are not learning mach.

Click to expand...

Fair enough, but let me explain myself.

I started going through all the leaders because I was starting to win most of my Prince games with my favourites, Caesar and Elizabeth. But I remembered what a jolt it was going from Noble to Prince and wanted to be better prepared for Monarch. So I decided to go through all the leaders, adjusting my strategies based on their characteristics, to see what I could learn.

So let me make this clear: I'm not making the jump to Monarch until I go through a game with each leader that I, personally, have not tried before. That was the "challenge". I have not played as Qin before, hence this game. This also means I have 17 (!) to go: Hatshepsut, Victoria, Louis, Napoleon, Frederick, Bismarck, Alexander, Huayna, Gandhi, Asoka, Tokugawa, Mansa, Genghis, Kublai, Cyrus, Peter, and Isabella.

Hoo boy, I'm gonna be at this for a while.

I didn't plan on posting every game like this, but it's gotten a lot of positive responses. I am still learning a LOT--from the games, and everyone here. And based on the responses in the threads and my PMs, a lot of other people are learning from these threads too. I know several of you play on Monarch and above, but I don't, and a lot of the people reading and learning from these threads don't either.

Keep in mind that if it looks like I won these two games handily, I had a LOT of help doing so. I have other Prince games I play between playing and posting the ALC game, and I don't win all of those.

But before I get too defensive, the fact that several people are getting very opinionated about the way the ALC games and their threads should go indicates how much they seem to mean to you. That's humbling. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your opinions, responses, and attention, and will endeavor to do my best to live up to your expectations.

Now, back to the game!

I am going to take a turn, maybe two, just to look around. In a couple of other games I've played recently, the start had one additional early farm or AH resource in the capital's third ring that I would have liked access to from the start. But Dr. EJ's warning is valid. If I decide that the opening position is best--and frankly, I'm reluctant to give up that cow tile--I'll use up two turns getting back to it from the hilltop.

But you know what? I'm Financial. And I'm not after an early religion. I can, I think, therefore afford an extra turn or two just to make sure I've got the best opening position for my capital.

Or as Caesar would say, "Let the dice fly high!" Up the hill I go.

I'll post the view from up there next.

I'd go with in spot, extra food from the sugar means faster growth that can rapidly be used for settlers/supporting Hills.

as for the Jungles... well One could be a GPFarm (I think the 'multiple Farms' idea is really only good for Philosophical Civs, for Others, the National Epic has a bigger proportional Effect... and Actually the Capital looks like It'd be the best GP Farm, 4 food resources (3 post-Calendar, and decent production)

The Jungles should be Cottage Spammed (Financial remember)

I'd say
1. Settle in spot
2. Research AH (or Hunting->AH, since it might take a while for a worker and some scouts would be nice)
3. Get 2 Settlers+ 2 Workers before starting to Wonder (SH, Oracle.. maybe Parthenon.. eventually GLib) in the Capital
4. Make at least one of those Settler Spots a military Base

Tech Order
(Hunting) AH
if Horses available ->Pottery ->Mysticism->Priesthood->Bronze Working
if Horses unavailable Bronze first (then all the above)


Oracle should probably be CoL (and then Prophet can get CS... for +50% hammers in Capital total of +100% on Wonders)

Great financial start. Cottage everywhere !

Been playing ahead but I won't spoil the fun. One thing that happened is I got beat to Pyramids and got a stash of cash instead (nice bonus for industrious) so it might be worth going for US after all if you used Industrious to half build wonders between useful production.

Round 1: to 3960 BC

Okay, so here's how things look from the top of the hill:



VoR, you were nearly bang-on: looks like that other blue circle was right on the coast.

So I'll be very interested in opinions on where to go next. There are a lot of attractive choices available here, especially with all those river tiles. Grassland hills on a river are very enticing, since they allow a production city to have mines with a little extra food and commerce for balance. I know plains hills produce an extra hammer instead of one food, but I often find I don't have the population and food surplus to work them until much later in the game.

I am currently inclined to move the Settler one tile south and settle there, on this turn, exactly where VoR thought I would. Granted, two of the lower three tiles of the cross remain semi-hidden; it looks like they're grassland hills as well, though. Assuming they are, I would have six grassland hills in the fat cross and keep the three sugar tiles. That gives me a food deficit of -3, which vanishes once the sugar tiles have plantations. My population will be well-fed but have lousy teeth! (Hmmm, perhaps I should be playing as England? Sorry, sorry, sorry...)

I'd have three forest tiles--not a lot, but at least I preserve the one I started on for chopping. If I'd taken the start, I'd have four, so not much difference. Since I'm Industrious, I'd be inclined to leave two forests for the health bonus until mid-game when I can build a grocer and any other needed health-boosting buildings.

The city itself would then have a fresh water health bonus, and at least 11 tiles are on rivers, making irrigation a dream. So the capital could either go with cottages on every grass tile for commerce/science, or farms for a GP farm. Likely a mix, but heavier on the cottages.

I'd be trading the cow for ivory. That would justify research Hunting rather than AH at first, and that means I can build a Scout or two while the city grows to 2 pop and starts building a Worker.

The hills would make the capital more of a production powerhouse--very attractive for wonder-building. And I forgot one attraction of these particular sugar tiles in the early game: since they produce three food AND they're on a river, they can contribute as much towards Worker/Settler builds as the other tiles, while also adding an additional commerce point towards early research.

There is an additional benefit to taking a turn or two to expose more of the map: it lends itself to a longer-term view of additional cities, which I find is another one of those advantages human players have over the AI. For example, I'm hoping there's a seafood resource to the north, off the coast. That's why I wouldn't mind giving up the cow tile--a coastal city would claim it. In fact, I'm inclined to take one more turn to check the coast out with the warrior to see if I should move my Settler even further south to accomodate a later city to the north.

But, as always, I appreciate everyone's input, which I await with bated breath.