Wonders biased towards the U.S.?

This is something I've been thinking about and I wonder if anyone else feels this way. It seems like the wonders towards the end of the game are strongly biased towards the United States. Is the game biased... or have no other nations done anything of worth in the past hundred or so years?

Look at the wonders towards the end of the game:
Hollywood
Broadway
Rock N' Roll
The Internet
Wall Street
Mt. Rushmore

As it is, I have a little beef with Rock N' Roll and The Internet being considered wonders, as wonders were usually things you could build. I think the internet should be a technology, not a wonder. As for Rock ' Roll... I'm not sure. (But on a side note, I wish they would bring back the Great Wall as a wonder.) Well? What do you guys think? Biased or an accurate reflection of our current history?

caitlinm said:

This is something I've been thinking about and I wonder if anyone else feels this way. It seems like the wonders towards the end of the game are strongly biased towards the United States. Is the game biased... or have no other nations done anything of worth in the past hundred years?

Look at the wonders towards the end of the game:
Hollywood
Broadway
Rock N' Roll
The Internet
Wall Street
Mt. Rushmore

As it is, I have a little beef with Rock N' Roll and The Internet being considered wonders, as wonders were usually things you could build. I think the internet should be a technology, not a wonder. As for Rock ' Roll... I'm not sure. (But on a side note, I wish they would bring back the Great Wall as a wonder.) Well? What do you guys think?

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Hasn´t America just become the paramount of modern western civilization? But I do agree that some things don´t belong as wonder such as Mt. Rushmore, I think other feets of human constructions have been greater than Mt. Rushmore. Broadway I think is also a bit dubiouse. What exactly makes Broadway more importand then London´s west end? Or other centers of theatrics. Wall Street is also a "replica" of the London Exchange.... so in a way I agree with you when you say that the wonders are a bit American orientated, but America is also very prominent in modern civilization...

Sure it is biased, US is the games primary market, the developers live in the US, and so on and so on. However, I do agree that CIV4 could very well be the MOST biased release of civ yet?

Hollywood
Broadway
Rock N' Roll
The Internet
Wall Street
Mt. Rushmore

Broadway should have been replaced with WestEnd.
Mt. Rushmore should not have been there at all, etc, etc...

I know this game is primarily for an American audience and the developers are American... I'm American too! But don't people in other countries play this game as well? It just irked me a bit to think that no other country has created anything worth mentioning since I've been alive... or since my grandparents have. (Not that I can think of any good examples, but I also don't pay attention to stuff like that.)

Use the search function and find the million other posts about this...

caitlinm said:

I know this game is primarily for an American audience and the developers are American... I'm American too! But don't people in other countries play this game as well? It just irked me a bit to think that no other country has created anything worth mentioning since I've been alive... or since my grandparents have. (Not that I can think of any good examples, but I also don't pay attention to stuff like that.)

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I think you mean, nobody has created any pop culture icons outside the US in a couple of generations--and that would be true for the US. I'm sure other nations have their icons, too, only the market is the US. As a result, US pop culture is employed.

If this game had been produced in Japan, I'm sure they would have used the Nikkei instead of Wall Street--and Hollywood became Hollywood, after all, by absorbing all the refugee directors, set and lighting directors, and actors from the huge film industry in Germany, Ufa, when so many employees left the latter in the 1920s.

Just so we're on the same page, here is a list of wonders by country. Admittedly I took my best guess at some of these so not all of them are 100% correct.

US (13)
Broadway
Hollywood
Mt. Rushmore
Apollo Program
Statue of Liberty
United Nations (Headquarters in US)
Internet (Technology originally developed in US)
Pentagon
Wall Street
Rock N Roll
Hermitage
West Point
Manhattan Project

England (4)
Globe Theatre
Stonehenge
Oxford University
Scotland Yard

China (4)
Three Gorges Dam
Forbidden Palace
Dai Miao
Kong Miao

France (4)
Versailles
Eiffel Tower
Notre Dame
National Epic (Icon is Arc de Triumph)


Egypt (3)
Great Lighthouse
Great Library
Pyramids

Greek (3)
Parthenon
Colossus
Oracle

India (3)
Kashi Wishwanath
Mahabodhi
Taj Mahal

Israel (2)
Temple of Solomon
Church of the Nativity

Chichen Itza - Mayan
Hagia Sophia - Turkey
Angkor Wat - Cambodia
Red Cross - Switzerland
Hanging Gardens - Babylon
Sistine Chapel - Italy
Kremlin - Russia
Spiral Minaret - Iraq
Masjid Al-Haram - Saudi Arabia

I have left off the following wonders/projects since I didn't know where to classify them:
Space Elevator
Heroic Epic
Ironworks
Palace
SDI
Spaceship Components

So by any measure, the US has far more wonders/projects represented in the game than any other country. As I see it this has been done for several reasons. First and foremost, the Civ IV developers are mostly American, and they made a game for a primarily American market. They included so many US wonders in order to make the game more accessible to their target audience. This is why the majority of modern wonders (13 of 18, by my count) are American.
MM

Plenty of cities have an "Arc de Triumph"...maybe that's why it is a national wonder. Maybe Paris had the first -- and certainly the most famous.

Mon Mauler said:

Rock N Roll
Hermitage
West Point
Manhattan Project

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The Hermitage is Russian

Reignking said:

Plenty of cities have an "Arc de Triumph"...maybe that's why it is a national wonder. Maybe Paris had the first -- and certainly the most famous.

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Ummm... say what now?

http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Arch_of_Titus.html

But not the first by any stretch, or invented by.

At any rate, I think the U.S. got more wonders, because by the time they're available most players have already "Won" or "lost" in their mind and stopped playing their game. I bet if a nationwide survey was made of all games across the country, far more Parthenons will have been built than Hollywoods...

And besides, the whole point of the game is that whoever builds the wonder is the one who BUILDS the wonder... guess what? If you're playing as Isabella and you build Broadway, then in your world, the U.S. didn't build it, so it's not a US wonder.

JoeBas said:

And besides, the whole point of the game is that whoever builds the wonder is the one who BUILDS the wonder... guess what? If you're playing as Isabella and you build Broadway, then in your world, the U.S. didn't build it, so it's not a US wonder.

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muahaha. I love that. That is a valid point. Although I would throw in a couple things. I think the Statue of Liberty should be considered a french wonder. And also that if some things like hollywood are going to be in, then I want Big Ben in. Just because Big Ben is awesome.



Also, I thought the great lighthouse was in Greece.

Are they adding any new wonders in the expansion? I'd love to see Red Square added to the game as a militaristic wonder.

Garand said:

Are they adding any new wonders in the expansion? I'd love to see Red Square added to the game as a militaristic wonder.

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Yeah, Why isnt the red square in here with all this pentagon, west point, and scotland yard stuff in? that is kinda crazy now that I think of it. They will probably give us the Washington memorial, White house, Capitol hill replaces palace, Lincoln monument, and Empire state building.

Personally, while I think it probably shows our well advertised love of self as Americans, I don't think the choices themselves are poor ones. In fact, from what I've read so far, I've not encountered better replacement choices for some of the American wonders, just more diverse choices. Diversity has intrinsic value in our polycultural world, but it isn't always the 'single best choice'. Nothing is. There is value to be had in making the game easily accessable to as many potential customers as possible. Maybe this means that Firaxis feels more copies will be sold in America than any other single nation?

Which ones could and/or should be changed?

Broadway - Could be London's West end
Hollywood - Tough to change this one
Mt. Rushmore - Almost every country has some monument to great leaders of the past
Apollo Program - Russia (USSR) and China sent men to space. US is the only one to reach the moon.
Statue of Liberty - Could be any modern structure built that symbolizes a nation. (Big Ben, Eiffel Tower, Malaysian twin towers (forgot the name), etc)
United Nations (Headquarters in US) - Built in the US because at the time, Europe was still War torn. On American soil, but not American.
Internet (Technology originally developed in US)
Pentagon - Again - all countries have a super-protected building for military and intelligance.
Wall Street - Just call it a stock exchange since they took that building out for CIV
Rock N Roll - Rock and Roll began in the US. It could be argued that the most famous rock band was British.
West Point - Military training ground.
Manhattan Project - similar project developed by the Russians, Nazis (not completed), Chinese, Indians, Pakistanis, Iranians, Israelis, etc.

Most of the modern 'wonders' dont fit the wonder category of old. Some are just a real name put on a building that all nations have (West Point, Mt Rushmore) These are where an American influence shows.

Ditto. Hollywood should stay even if they have gotten worse over the years.
Eiffel Tower is already in.
Rock n' Roll - America, Elvis beat out the beatles.
Stock Exchange seems generic to me. Besides then people would be arguing it is the NY one
Watch out with that internet line. People come up with all kinds of crazy stuff on that topic. (Turns out Poland was investigating a type of fiber optic communication in 1930, or some other BS. )

From what I seen if people wanted to get real picky about this stuff, they could make XML tags and adjust Mount rushmore to be a different graphic/name to suit a particular civ. But I think people just like to throw a fit about it myself. I am American but I wouldnt be bothered if America had hardly any wonders in the game. The early civs didn't and I didnt care then. I rarely play america anyways.

key words "whoopty-doo" IMO. But, oh yes, there is a but. BUT I want to see big ben and the red square in because they are both cool. I have always liked big ben. It is in the town square area of every sim city game after landmarks came in. I think Firaxis threw in too many wonders this go around. National wonders are a cool idea though. I just have a hard time looking at the statue of liberty or the pentagon as a wonder.

Red square is my fav level to play on Ghost Recon 1. That game is awesome.

The Keeper said:

Rock N Roll - Rock and Roll began in the US. It could be argued that the most famous rock band was British.

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Yeah, I like to think of this 'wonder' as British. The bedrock of rock and roll is blues and THAT originated in the US, but, as an American, I must admit the majority of legendary rock bands of the past are British/English.

Yes, the choice of 20th century wonders is poor, but Western Civilization has indeed provided the world with some of the truly more earthshaking wonders of late. Ladies and gentlemen, I propose:

The World Bank - Any recipient of loan from civ of ownership recieves -50 percent economy and growth, +50 unhappiness, and must automatically privatize and restructure to free market economy after 10 turns. Said nations can no longer afford to build public libraries, universities, hospitals, aquaducts or sanitation projects. Can only be built by North American civ.

The IMF - Loan payments from Southern Hemisphere civs to civ of ownership now automatically restructure to last until end of game or Armageddon, whichever comes first. Can only be built by European civ.

The WTO - For the poorest seventyfive percent of civs in game one pasture or farm per turn is converted into a sweatshop with all profits resulting returned to country of WTO location in the form of stock dividends. Can only be built by seven richest cacausian civs and Japan.

MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction - Country of ownership may succesfully prevent so-called rogue states from developing nuclear arsonal by threatening to nuke them. Drawback - .001 percent chance per turn that the game suddenly ends without warning for all civs on planet. May only be built by US and Russia.

CNN and FOX - No more war weariness in Democracy.

and finally

THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX - Plus 500 percent military production in civ of ownership, but 50 percent of all production in said civ must be of a military nature. Said civ now automatically declares war on random civ from foreign culture group at least once every generation. Can only be built by free market, Christian, Democracy.

Instant_Cereal said:

Yeah, I like to think of this 'wonder' as British. The bedrock of rock and roll is blues and THAT originated in the US, but, as an American, I must admit the majority of legendary rock bands of the past are British/English.

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Blues, Country and Jazz all combined to form Rock N Roll and all three are distinctly American, however, you are correct that the legendary bands of Rock are all primarily English.