Proposed Leader Traits Switch

Hello all. Ever since I got Civ4, something just hasn't set right with me regarding the various leader traits. Then, I finally figured it out. IMHO, the leader traits for Genghis Khan and Tokugawa should be switched. While both have the Aggressive trait (appropriately enough), I think that Genghis should have the Organized trait (best for sprawling empires), while Toku should have the Expansive trait (best for growing mega-cities). After all, Genghis and his sons and grandsons (including Kublai*) crafted the largest land empire in the history of the world, while Japan is known for ultra-high population densities, and has never had an extensive empire (I don't count 1942-1945, a blip in the larger scheme of things). Moreover, the Mongols were not exactly known for their devotion to urban planning . The only reason I can see that they kept Genghis Agg/Exp is because the Mongols were Mil/Exp in Civ3 (which made them one of the more toothless nations in both Civs). The mismatch in traits is particularly annoying if you're playing any kind of Earth map, with or without mods (which I usually am).

What do you think?

*Personally, I don't know why Kublai merited inclusion. Sure, he conquered southern China, but compared to some of his other relatives, that isn't that impressive of an accomplishment. There are many other civs that should have had a 2nd leader before the Mongols (e.g. Rome, Greece, Spain, Egypt, Persia, and Arabia, although I understand Warlords will remedy that a bit.)

I like the fact that Japan is more closed and less likely to open its borders or trade. I think that Japan is set up just fine the way it is.

Pounder said:

I like the fact that Japan is more closed and less likely to open its borders or trade. I think that Japan is set up just fine the way it is.

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Thanks for the reply. However, I wasn't talking about the AI files (I agree with you - the AI plays the Japan very appropriately as a prickly isolationist.) Rather, I was referring to the traits given to the respective leaders. As it is now, by not giving Genghis the Organized trait, it is very difficult to try and emulate the Mongols' historical success at widespread conquest (ie. domination in Civ4, not the razing of nearly every city you take).

I find this to be agreeable, but I just wonder if good old Temujin will get Imperialistic in Warlords? I actually would bet money on it since Shaka was announced to be aggressive/expansive.

monkspider said:

I find this to be agreeable, but I just wonder if good old Temujin will get Imperialistic in Warlords? I actually would bet money on it since Shaka was announced to be aggressive/expansive.

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Thanks for the reply. I bet you're right, and they probably will make Genghis Agg/Imp in Warlords (at least for the Mongol scenario). But given that the Mongols modus operandi was taking and holding other people's cities (after weeding out a few thousand "undesirables" ) rather than building their own, I'd still rather see them with Agg/Org. Perhaps Imp/Org wouldn't be a bad combo for them, either, although they're probably reserving that pair for Augustus (appropriate IMHO).

And touching on a larger point, I think that the Expansive trait in Civ4 is poorly labelled in general, considering that, as others have posted, it encourages vertical growth, not horizontal growth. Now that settlers don't cost pop points, cheap granaries aren't quite as crucial for REX as they were in Civ3. I mean, if they're giving Shaka the Exp trait - how does that make sense? Was sub-Saharan Africa known for its massive urban agglomerations in pre-modern times? They should probably just rename the trait "Urban" or something like that.

I'm hoping the whole set of traits is rebalanced a bit. It seems rather odd that trait combos such as "Industrious/Philosophical" are so powerful they can't be given to any civilization at all. The game has been in play for three monthes, and they are adding three new trait types, you'd think they could get everything in balance now.

I suppose it just depends how you look at it...if you renamed the organised trait as expansive, then it would seem to make just as much sense (1/2 price courthouses, to relieve the cost of the expansive tendency, 1/2 price civics for same reason, 1/2 price lighthouses to help feed the growing population)

And lighthouses for organised as it is? I can never understand that decision, it seems to me sort of thrown in for good measure, to give the organised trait a slight seafaring bias...

Anyway, as it stands it seems a case of "whats in a name"....

bovinespy said:

Thanks for the reply. I bet you're right, and they probably will make Genghis Agg/Imp in Warlords (at least for the Mongol scenario). But given that the Mongols modus operandi was taking and holding other people's cities (after weeding out a few thousand "undesirables" ) rather than building their own, I'd still rather see them with Agg/Org. Perhaps Imp/Org wouldn't be a bad combo for them, either, although they're probably reserving that pair for Augustus (appropriate IMHO).

And touching on a larger point, I think that the Expansive trait in Civ4 is poorly labelled in general, considering that, as others have posted, it encourages vertical growth, not horizontal growth. Now that settlers don't cost pop points, cheap granaries aren't quite as crucial for REX as they were in Civ3. I mean, if they're giving Shaka the Exp trait - how does that make sense? Was sub-Saharan Africa known for its massive urban agglomerations in pre-modern times? They should probably just rename the trait "Urban" or something like that.

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Now with the Vassal State option, a more realistic Mongol (Genghis Khan) empire system could be employed. Give Genghis a more militaristic trait focus (rather than Expansive or such - I wish Organised did also affect military and not just the domestic side. Free supply costs would be a good addition to the Organised trait) and less focus on empire size and have him conquer by acquiring Vassal States. This would essentially allow for truely fast militaristic expansion (and not the Expansive traits version of expansion). When one Vassal stops paying tribute, the army comes back and 'corrects' the problem. That is more inline with how he did things and by having a strong millitary trait flavor and less focus on domestic affairs, it would cause the player to rely on its military to expand fast. One could then use the tribute gold to fund its own expansion or to support a bigger army.

If the Vassal State option is what I think it is, I could see it reaching a point where you could actually rule a huge lakes map with 3 cities! The gold from the Vassal States would be used to support a larger than normally possible army and then be used to 'keep them in line' and for further conquests. Really looking forward to it. Just getting gold from Vassal States does open up a lot of interesting possibilities for a conqueror in CivIV and I think getting gold from Vassals will have more far reaching consequences than initially thought because of how important gold is for expansion/millitary. I would imagine the Vassal State option would be like every leader essentially having a Shrined Holy City and getting them to become your Vassal would be a bit like getting Shrined Holy City gold income for 10 turns or so. Interesting.

Watiggi

Actually Expansive Does encourage Horizontal Growth

Expansive= Better Rushing
Cheap Granaries=More Effective Whipping
Health bonus=Forest can be used for Chopping

^^that's a good point people think of expansive only for more food = bigger city. but they neglect the point that expansive + slavery = better whipping.

Krikkitone, I know. But that was because in the 'old days', the only way to expand was to get vertical growth growing as fast as possible because you needed at least a size 2 city to make Settlers. Now you don't. Horizontal growth has nothing to do with vertical growth now because it doesn't cost any population to expand.

Anyways, I was actually refering to simulating militaristic expansion and not the British style expansion. The Vassal State option may allow for a true, fast militaristic expansion.

Watiggi