Religion issues with citys ?

any one know if there going to be mod or if any one can mod in abilty to kill off diffren relegion sects in your own citys ?

example: what if you want your whole coutnry to be a certain relgoius sect or if you dont want any relglion at all in your citys but all of sudden some of them start turn into diffrent relligions like budest and cahtlic then islam but u only want one of them.

in real life people have wiped out whole populations of people to keep certain sect from taking over.

I kinda think it should be added to the game.

everyt ime in each city you wipe out a certian religion sect in a city i think you should lose 25% of the city population and I also think it should only be allowed if your certain form of goverment depotism and monarchy be two good examples.

I don't see how that is particularly useful in CivIV ... more religions means more temples, more happy people, and perhaps even more money for yourself. If you want to limit the spread of a particular religion, declare a state religion and switch your civic to Theocracy.

As for history, I'm not sure that is particularly historically accurate either. All efforts at repression have succeded in limiting the growth of a particular religion, but never fully eliminating it. There were and are Christians in Japan even, for example.

how usefull it may be or not may be just depend on whos playing.

if you dont really care that much for your people if there happy or not and your going for more of a conquest victory thro force using dictator ship style play or relgius cursade type, then some type of feature for geniocide should be able to be implemented.

midn8t said:

any one know if there going to be mod or if any one can mod in abilty to kill off diffren relegion sects in your own citys ?

example: what if you want your whole coutnry to be a certain relgoius sect or if you dont want any relglion at all in your citys but all of sudden some of them start turn into diffrent relligions like budest and cahtlic then islam but u only want one of them.

in real life people have wiped out whole populations of people to keep certain sect from taking over.

I kinda think it should be added to the game.

everyt ime in each city you wipe out a certian religion sect in a city i think you should lose 25% of the city population and I also think it should only be allowed if your certain form of goverment depotism and monarchy be two good examples.

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i don't think it should be in the game, cause as history teaches us - a lot of people tried to eliminate some religions or suppress people but all of them failed cause when you try to eliminate a religions the followers of it just will get a harder grab on it.

so if to be historically correct such feature shouldn't be - there can be an option but it can cause only havoc and later the revolt of those peoples.

It is true, there were often religious persecutions, epseically when the government is short on cash. Confiscating temple/church property seem like a very lucrative enterprise for the govt.
But in civ4, this benefit doesn't exist. Followers of diff. religion does not hate each other, your state religion does not get a boost even if it is the only religion in that city, there is no religious victory, and eliminating a religion doesn't give any bonus at all.
For this 'religious persecution' to make sense, we need the following:

1) followers of different religion tends to hate each other. Some religions are more exclusive than others. So having a lot of religions in a city will give cultural/science boost, but with happiness penalty.
2) City with different religion than your state religion tends to revolt more often.
3) Followers of a religion whose holy city is controlled by your enemy will spy on you. (this is enough ground for persecution) (this is already in game)
4) Having more religiones in a city dilutes the effectiveness of each religion. A religion's spread rate should be partially dependent on its effectiveness. So to maximize the rate at which your state religion spreads, you want it to be the only religion in a city.
5) All religion except the state religion give -1 happiness under theoracy. So when you are in theoracy, you should persecution other religions.
6) Persecuting religion gives gold bonus - destroying temple/church yields gold.
7) Persecution can also be used to quickly surpress resistence in a newly conquered city.
8) Each religion that is being persecuted, will give extra unhappiness, of course, in a city with substantial population of that religion, it might cause civil unrest.

dont forget that if a holy city owns the religious "wonder" they get +1 gold for each city with their religion. So say early in the game, an AI founds buddism and it spreads rapidly among your cities because you have no reliogion. Later on, you get say Islam and convert all your cities. You are still generating gold for the Buddist AI, so an Inquisition type "building" that eliminates non-state religions would in fact deprive your opponent of cash. Until free reliogion, there really should be a penalty for multiple religions in a city.

alpha wolf 64 said:

dont forget that if a holy city owns the religious "wonder" they get +1 gold for each city with their religion. So say early in the game, an AI founds buddism and it spreads rapidly among your cities because you have no reliogion. Later on, you get say Islam and convert all your cities. You are still generating gold for the Buddist AI, so an Inquisition type "building" that eliminates non-state religions would in fact deprive your opponent of cash. Until free reliogion, there really should be a penalty for multiple religions in a city.

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actully form my understanding form what iv been told and what i seen when playing you are they actully get part of your tax money as income
yet say there is a holy city in rome and u are spain and ur city is making 5 gold turn it then turns cahtlic and holy city is rome ur income seems to go down

Dida said:

It is true, there were often religious persecutions, epseically when the government is short on cash. Confiscating temple/church property seem like a very lucrative enterprise for the govt.
But in civ4, this benefit doesn't exist. Followers of diff. religion does not hate each other, your state religion does not get a boost even if it is the only religion in that city, there is no religious victory, and eliminating a religion doesn't give any bonus at all.
For this 'religious persecution' to make sense, we need the following:

1) followers of different religion tends to hate each other. Some religions are more exclusive than others. So having a lot of religions in a city will give cultural/science boost, but with happiness penalty.
2) City with different religion than your state religion tends to revolt more often.
3) Followers of a religion whose holy city is controlled by your enemy will spy on you. (this is enough ground for persecution) (this is already in game)
4) Having more religiones in a city dilutes the effectiveness of each religion. A religion's spread rate should be partially dependent on its effectiveness. So to maximize the rate at which your state religion spreads, you want it to be the only religion in a city.
5) All religion except the state religion give -1 happiness under theoracy. So when you are in theoracy, you should persecution other religions.
6) Persecuting religion gives gold bonus - destroying temple/church yields gold.
7) Persecution can also be used to quickly surpress resistence in a newly conquered city.
8) Each religion that is being persecuted, will give extra unhappiness, of course, in a city with substantial population of that religion, it might cause civil unrest.

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I actully kinda like this idea to add more depth and game play to relelgion, u know they have therocy in game which should allow you to win thro relgion

senes your goverment and nation is ran by the church.

alpha wolf 64 said:

dont forget that if a holy city owns the religious "wonder" they get +1 gold for each city with their religion. So say early in the game, an AI founds buddism and it spreads rapidly among your cities because you have no reliogion. Later on, you get say Islam and convert all your cities. You are still generating gold for the Buddist AI, so an Inquisition type "building" that eliminates non-state religions would in fact deprive your opponent of cash. Until free reliogion, there really should be a penalty for multiple religions in a city.

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I would add that this quickly becomes unmanagable since multiple religions have a high probability of founding themselves in the same city. Historically, this can be as peaceable as Confucionism and Taoism in Beijing, or Christianity-Judaism-Islam in conflicting Jerusalem.

If antagonism is something modeled in Civ IV, then some pretty dramatic changes to the very structure of the game would have to be put in place.

zapple said:

I would add that this quickly becomes unmanagable since multiple religions have a high probability of founding themselves in the same city. Historically, this can be as peaceable as Confucionism and Taoism in Beijing, or Christianity-Judaism-Islam in conflicting Jerusalem.

If antagonism is something modeled in Civ IV, then some pretty dramatic changes to the very structure of the game would have to be put in place.

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it something im sure could been added to expasion pack

midn8t said:

it something im sure could been added to expasion pack

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Seriously, this is the kind of things that I am hoping to get in an XP, not some additonal units or civs, which modders on this board can easily mod in, free of charge.

midn8t said:

actully form my understanding form what iv been told and what i seen when playing you are they actully get part of your tax money as income
yet say there is a holy city in rome and u are spain and ur city is making 5 gold turn it then turns cahtlic and holy city is rome ur income seems to go down

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It was difficult to understand what you were trying to say, but I don't think that you're correct (are you trying to say that Holy Shrines steal money?). Shrines give the Holy City +1 Gold Per Turn for each city with said religion.

Mewtarthio said:

It was difficult to understand what you were trying to say, but I don't think that you're correct (are you trying to say that Holy Shrines steal money?). Shrines give the Holy City +1 Gold Per Turn for each city with said religion.

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well me and my frineds have noticed that holy citys take money from takes they dont make money from thin air.

you build a shinre in city, that cost you mantinace fee I think ethere holy citys get that money or they are able to tax the people in that city one of the two.

but money should half to come from some where its not just created out of thin air.

Well, I've built a holy shrine for my religion when my country was the only one with that religion AND I got more money for it. How can I steal money from myself and get a profit like that? o_O

At least, I think I was getting money for it. I might be mistaken. But I did make a holy shrine for a religion that only I had.

but anyways besides point, STGY or even Role playing exprince what if you dont want to play a goodie goodie toosihes civlization what if you want to play as like a stalin or hitler or you just pissed off at othere civlization or relgions around you for no othere reaosn then you just dont want them around.

its game. and its game thats based on civlzations and so forth.

so in thero and reialty should be giving option to wipe people out burn them down and murder them off to take over the world.

and if hillier clinton comes into this form and trys to sue me becuase i said something that isnt family orinated im going to nuke every one in my game.

Sohan said:

Well, I've built a holy shrine for my religion when my country was the only one with that religion AND I got more money for it. How can I steal money from myself and get a profit like that? o_O

At least, I think I was getting money for it. I might be mistaken. But I did make a holy shrine for a religion that only I had.

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I half to re-read book but fomr my understanding you only get money from othere civlizations that have shrines in there citys.

but even if thats case i mean think about it the guy your competting with is making money off of your citys. and you trying to win game agint this guy thats rules in its self. to try to do something about it.

if i had to kill off 1 population to wip out 10% of the relgion in city id do it.

I also think theres something worng with the cultra in this game.

in theroy,

you have two civlizaztions next to each othere one where every one is happy and loving it we will call this state 1 then you have place where every one hates it and they get shoot at and so forth we will call that state 2

my question is cultra work via making people happy and churchs and all that great crape.

why would people from state 1 move there people and there cultra into state 2
would cultra and people form state 2 drift into state 1 ?

way its setup now the happy people and high cultra rated people move into the places that have less cultra and not so happy people.

that seems kinda back wards to me.

yet use the USA as an example

every one here like it free doom yah yah all that crape
so will our cultra and people move into yets say cuba ?
or mexico

yah no we dont even move into canada.

what is happen there moving here and turing our cultra and nation into theres.

so in thero if you have place where every one wants to be and you just yet them all move in sooner or latter you will have alot of people in one area wiht no real cultra or national idinity.

but not in civ 4, if you have happy country people move there cultra to the not so happy places.

they should had a world wonder called the berlin wall that keep othere countrys cultra and people out of your citys.

I agree with Dida. Religions need to be fixed. I also think there should be a religious victory. Say you have to have your religion dominate a certain percentage over all the other religions. Also, older religions should spread slower then later ones for the earlier relgions tend to dominate. If you could remove religions this could help off-set this.

Justinian519 said:

I agree with Dida. Religions need to be fixed. I also think there should be a religious victory. Say you have to have your religion dominate a certain percentage over all the other religions. Also, older religions should spread slower then later ones for the earlier relgions tend to dominate. If you could remove religions this could help off-set this.

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religous victorys should only work if your goverment head is therocarcy.

if your goverment is ran by the church.

and if thats case people of your relgion would be more likly to revolt towards your side beucase they want to honor your goverment and your church relgion

midn8t said:

way its setup now the happy people and high cultra rated people move into the places that have less cultra and not so happy people.

that seems kinda back wards to me.

yet use the USA as an example

every one here like it free doom yah yah all that crape
so will our cultra and people move into yets say cuba ?
or mexico

yah no we dont even move into canada.

what is happen there moving here and turing our cultra and nation into theres.

so in thero if you have place where every one wants to be and you just yet them all move in sooner or latter you will have alot of people in one area wiht no real cultra or national idinity.

but not in civ 4, if you have happy country people move there cultra to the not so happy places.

they should had a world wonder called the berlin wall that keep othere countrys cultra and people out of your citys.

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I'm not sure if I understood your points correctly, but here's my view on that.

1. I think the culture system in CivIV is very good, particularly in how it balances out the old "chariot-rush"/"tank rush" of previous Civs.

2. That a strong culture subsumes other societies is historically valid - consider any of the Pre-Colombian 'holy' cities, or the non-military expansions of France, or the development of the modern-state of Germany. These expansive societies offered something intangible, yet vital, to the peripheral towns, villages, cities ... be it a religious message, or a High King, or Law and Identity for the respective examples.

Interestingly, I think CivIV models the 'cultural identity' variable surprisingly well ... with the percentile 'identity' of a given city's population showing how likely they are to turn.

3. Regarding your comments about Mexico or Cuba or Canada - one should look at the history, and not think of cultural borders as 'national borders.' No offence meant to Canadians, but with a few exceptions of language, of political organisation, and of Canadian-content media programming, Canada is significantly integrated economically and culturally with the US. Even when defined in opposition to the US, it is reliant on that southern neighbour for that internal conversation. Much the same can be said of Mexico. Also, far from subverting the US culture, these cultural immigrants have adopted many 'local customs' - including mixed language, and an earnest desire for a Ford pick-up truck instead of the burro.

I suggest that if you do want to model this grey area of 'culture flipping' - it would be in the relativism that is both the strength and weakness of the very open social civics that CivIV offers.

For example: a closed society may gain in new immigrants from a neighbouring Civ (city population increases), but they will be a ghetto'd community who will never be integrated into the broader society (e.g. multi-generational ethnic Chinese and Koreans in modern Japan) ... in CivIV terms, this is a dangerous fixed % of a city's population that will never identify with your Civ. An open society, meanwhile, may have the fluctuation of that newcomer community in border cities, but over time/generations, they begin to be integrated (e.g. US, Canada, even France).

Theoretically, a Spy could be made to agitate unrest with this % of a city's population (historical models: Red Brigade, Red Army Faction, 2nd World War ethnic divisions by all participants).