Feedback: Tech tree

Come here to rant/praise/whine about the new tech tree design. Play a game or two first, give it a chance and then stop in here and let us know what you think.

As a side note, I'm particularly interested in how people feel about the vertical scrolling in the new tech tree. I've been trying to mash everything into a vanilla-style horizontal tree for my own mod and it's been giving me a major headache. If people don't mind the vertical much, it'd make my own mod-making a ton easier.

I'll report my own impressions later; I havn't played with it enough to form any yet.

It is quite disorientating at first, in that to look at new techs I have to go back and forth. I can get used to it though.
Cottages come much later in the game now, before half the civs began with it. Not sure if that is bad or good, will need to play a few more times, but it stand out at the beginning.

Zurai said:

As a side note, I'm particularly interested in how people feel about the vertical scrolling in the new tech tree. I've been trying to mash everything into a vanilla-style horizontal tree for my own mod and it's been giving me a major headache. If people don't mind the vertical much, it'd make my own mod-making a ton easier.

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As long as you use the vertical axis extensively, like FfH does, it's no problem. It would be annoying though if the vertical axis only existed to allow one more tech per column. Then it would be easy to just forget about those few techs that fall just off the screen. Eg check out Astronomy and Crop Rotation in The Ancient Mediterranean mod.

I think the tech tree is a bit confusing at the beginning but it is ok how it is. I'll get used to it.
But there are some technologies which do nothing. Crafting leads to other technologies, but deception? This tech is really unnecessary at the moment

i think the new tech tree layout is really fine. it makes it much clearer.
although it might be usefull if there would be some printable version be availiable, so one can get a better overview.

I think the free tech is way to early. Only those civs that start with ancient chants have a chance to get it. And for all who start with it the only viable coice in the beginning is to research it first..

instead of moving the free tech back, perhaps it could be moved to a different line,or move all civs from ancient chants as starting tech.(I figure their might be reasons for starting them with ac though)

I think the temple wonders belong on different techs (temporance, hall of kings). Not sure what another good one would be for either though.

Is it intentional that runes/leaves special units don't require a temple built first?
edit: yeah, what Julius said, sorry. It does make sense since they are more expensive, but it's a change, I thought.

Nikis-Knight said:

Is it intentional that runes/leaves special units don't require a temple built first?

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Yeah, no heroes require buildings or resources.

I guess Nikis-Knight was talking about Soldier of Runes and Archer of Leaves...

Ahh.. no, they never required temples either.

In single player games I have found the tech tree easy to use. My problem stems more from the fact that i play the game as hotseat/multi-player the most and when you go into your tech tree your techs researched techs merge making into extremely hard to know where you are at and here you still need to go. Going out and coming back into the tech tree helps somehwat, but not completely. Have not had this problem in hotseat in the normal civ4 games i play

with the free tech bonus... Ive found that more often then not the AI doesnt go for it and I have time to steal it before they get it when I play with a Civ without the ancient chants

it does come a little early though inmho

I enjoy the tech tree as it is, no problems with vertical scroll... one thing I have been thinking alot lately is that if you go one way with religion on a tech tree that it would block out another route...

i.e. - getting the Order religion prevents you from later getting the Ashen Veil and its bonuses
In one game I was the first to discover the Order religion, some one else discovered the Ashen Veil, but I traded with them, received that tech, and built the wonder that gives a free tech bonus

soibean said:

In one game I was the first to discover the Order religion, some one else discovered the Ashen Veil, but I traded with them, received that tech, and built the wonder that gives a free tech bonus

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Heh built that wonder yesterday too and nearly lost my capital to the demon that spawned.. I finally killed it after hevay casualties and with much luck.

here's an idea,
civ based techs that lead to other techs in the late game. For example Seafaring and mesage from the deep leading to 'seafloor excavation', allowing a 'salvage operation' to be built giving all sea tiles around the city +
A 'barberic' tech for the clan of embers and dovelio that leads to 'cull the weak' with survival, granting a bonus to production equal to the remaining city population after hurrying by sacrifice, becuase the strongest survive the culling and the population becomes stronger as the weak and small are removed forcibly from the genepool. Dwarven->Dwarven enchanted mining, Elven->Elven arcitecture etc.

Just a few points I'd like to raise:

First, I dislike the fact that the religious techs are dead ends for any Civ that doesn't adopt that religion. Our opinions might differ in this, but I liked the fact that in the vanilla tree, you had to get polytheism to get anywhere, and meditation, theology, etc. were still required eventually. Heck, even Divine Right was an optional path to Nationalism (though I never used it).

Second, it seems like you're having some techs be a little too specific. One example that comes to mind (though I believe it's no longer valid) is the Mercantilism (sp?) tech in Version 1 which allowed Mercantilism and nothing else. I know that you are probably having a hard time stretching out three eras to cover a whole mod for Civ IV, but this really doesn't make for a successful tech tree. I've also noticed that the early techs tend to not have this problem. I know that more features and abilities for the techs means more programming, more units, more work for the team in general, but I think it's important to avoid over-specific techs.

Thirdly, it seems that Civs are way too reluctant to found their own religions. I could once found the Ashen Veil in 3 turns (and I know the other Civs weren't too far behind me), but no Civ went for it for another 50 turns or more! This might have to do with the fact that these religious techs lead nowhere (or at least the AI sees it that way), and so may be weighted less. I, and probably a lot of other people, would really appreciate it if you weighted the religious techs a bit more.

I think that covers everything. What do you think of these ideas?

Chandrasekhar said:

Just a few points I'd like to raise:

First, I dislike the fact that the religious techs are dead ends for any Civ that doesn't adopt that religion. Our opinions might differ in this, but I liked the fact that in the vanilla tree, you had to get polytheism to get anywhere, and meditation, theology, etc. were still required eventually. Heck, even Divine Right was an optional path to Nationalism (though I never used it).

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The vanilla tree is meant to give you realistic technology's and grants you units, civics etc to go along with them even when they don't have anything to do with it. It is a historical tech tree meant to play out somewhat realistically.

The FfH tree is a functional tree. The point is that your civ is able to develop however you prefer, military, magic, economy and religious goals are kept largely seperate to force players to choose their development instead of merely moving through it.

Second, it seems like you're having some techs be a little too specific. One example that comes to mind (though I believe it's no longer valid) is the Mercantilism (sp?) tech in Version 1 which allowed Mercantilism and nothing else. I know that you are probably having a hard time stretching out three eras to cover a whole mod for Civ IV, but this really doesn't make for a successful tech tree. I've also noticed that the early techs tend to not have this problem. I know that more features and abilities for the techs means more programming, more units, more work for the team in general, but I think it's important to avoid over-specific techs.

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Yeah, i really tried to be less specific when I went to this tree. Mostly because these techs have to apply to a wide range of civs. I would be interested for suggestions on specific changes that would make it less specific.

Thirdly, it seems that Civs are way too reluctant to found their own religions. I could once found the Ashen Veil in 3 turns (and I know the other Civs weren't too far behind me), but no Civ went for it for another 50 turns or more! This might have to do with the fact that these religious techs lead nowhere (or at least the AI sees it that way), and so may be weighted less. I, and probably a lot of other people, would really appreciate it if you weighted the religious techs a bit more.

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A new feature in 0.13 is that some civs will rush certain religions. Its not a firm rule for all of them. I want the Hippus to follow the order in one game and the veil in the next. I was a dynamic world where games differe from each other, I dont want civs to play the same way everytime.

But the Khazad will rush rune sin 0.13, the ljosalfar will rush the fellowship, and certain other civs are more likely to switch to certain religions than others. In 0.12 we intorduced the fact that no civ will research the founding tech to a religion that will change its alignment. So good civs wont research message of the deep or infernal pact, neutral civs wont research orders form heaven or infernal pact and evil civs wont research way of the earthmother or orders from heaven.

I think that covers everything. What do you think of these ideas?

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Keep the suggestions coming!

Firstly, Kael, it's an honor to "meet" you. You don't seem like to type to appreciate hero-worship overmuch, but you can hardly do what you've done without having a little bit of it directed towards you.

Anyway, now that that's out of the way, I see your point about FfH's tech tree compared to the vanilla one. I still dislike it, but at least there's a reason behind it. One other point I meant to raise: do you think that a few more either/or tech connections would be possible? I know that you want people to choose their specializations in techs, but a little bit of synergy couldn't hurt between the specializations . Ah, another other point, raised by your response: does the AI follow this specialization logic? I think I know the answer, but it would be nice if they could be made to follow a certain path based on their "personality."

I understand and empathize with your difficulties keeping techs from being "too specific." I didn't mean it for as much of a criticism as just to make sure we're all on the same page.

About the reluctance to found an opposed religion, though, I think we might be in disagreement. Of course, the AI should aim away from founding that particular religion, but what happens is that the Ashen Veil or The Order often ends up getting founded by a tech trailer and doesn't ever become prominent. It is really detrimental to having a big holy war when the opposed religion is founded by some crap Civ... but maybe founding a religion could give the founder a bonus to put him back in the running if he's falling behind. I have no idea how.

Anyway, the AI should still be able to found a religion completely opposed to it in my opinion. I really wouldn't mind seeing Sabathiel or some other good leader found the Ashen Veil and convert, a "fall from heaven" if you will. The opposite should be possible as well, like Hyborem founding The Order, a redemption maybe. In any case, I agree that it should be rare. Founding two different religions, that should be avoided by the AI. In fact, there should be penalties or incentives not to do so, even for humans. I'm not sure if that belongs in this thread though, so I'll shut up here.