jaguars arent that bad

im not saying they are the best uus ( look at my sig) but dont deserve the worst uu title but they are good
theydont need iron and they are given combat 1 straigt away

But the lose the strength, they have the same strength as Axemen who come earlier. Compared to the Swordsman, they suck. They're also more expensive. And how many times have you not had iron in your game?

AlCosta15 said:

But the lose the strength, they have the same strength as Axemen who come earlier. Compared to the Swordsman, they suck. They're also more expensive. And how many times have you not had iron in your game?

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last 2 games i had no cioce but eiter gun for gunpowder or go on to world biulder

i've actually been able to declare war with jags as the primary unit so i caould gain access to iron/copper. since i didn't have any of these i couldn't build axes. but after i had axes i didn't need the jags. and don't forget they get extra jungle defense. build a barrax and you can build a nice offensive force early with no resources.

they also have the same strength as axes but none of the 50% bonus against melee the axes get. there just extremly pointless unless your whole world is covered in jungle.

I don't have experience with the Jag since I don't play as Montezuma. But as for playing against him, could you imagine if he had a good gunpowder-era UU? With the numbers he builds, you would be in for an awfully long game. That's probably why the Jag isn't strong.

It is not about not having iron (though there may be something to be said about the risk insurance against not having metals)...it is about being able to whip out about a half dozen jags in the time it would take to get a settler to the iron and the worker turns to get it hooked up.

It is about building jags in cities that are not connected to your iron (such as newly conquered cities).

It is the fact that the jags are cheaper than swordsmen.

If you have to have a unit that gives you extra strength in order to understand how to use it, then you probably won't be able to figure out how to utilize the advantages the jag gives you.

No, it is not the best UU. But it is far from being the worst. It has significant advantages that can be exploited for a considerable advantage...if you understand how to do it. If you can't figure it out, then you will probably continue to think that the Jag sucks.

And that is fine. To each their own.

If you tell me that Jags are not the worst then tell me who is worse?

Situations when you have no iron is very rare and iron working is too early so you may restart if you don't get the iron what you need... Also camel archers do not need iron and horses but they have not 8 or 9 strenght and perhaps +5% against helicopter units

The fact that axes kill swords who have 6 strenght means that jags get slaughered even easier... Jags work well when defender have no axemen... if they have one or two you just waste your guys.

Perhaps drop the 30% jungle defence because nobody needs it. Just give +35% city attack and they would be much better.

Jarrod32 said:

It is not about not having iron (though there may be something to be said about the risk insurance against not having metals)...it is about being able to whip out about a half dozen jags in the time it would take to get a settler to the iron and the worker turns to get it hooked up.

It is about building jags in cities that are not connected to your iron (such as newly conquered cities).

It is the fact that the jags are cheaper than swordsmen.

If you have to have a unit that gives you extra strength in order to understand how to use it, then you probably won't be able to figure out how to utilize the advantages the jag gives you.

No, it is not the best UU. But it is far from being the worst. It has significant advantages that can be exploited for a considerable advantage...if you understand how to do it. If you can't figure it out, then you will probably continue to think that the Jag sucks.

And that is fine. To each their own.

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I can see the advantages of using the Jaguar, especially for travelling in jungles behind enemy lines, impervious to assault. But honestly, that may work alright against the AI, which seems to only have one strategy (Build lots of units, including tons of Horse Archers, throw them uselessly at the enemy, rinse and repeat) but against an intelligent human player it likely won't work, at least not as well. If someone marched a stack of Jaguars into my country, keeping to jungle hills, I wouldn't be stupid enough to attack them there. I'd send an army into Montezuma's country, then wait until they came out in the open to cut the Jags to pieces.

Sure, they have their uses: But I'd still rather have Swordsmen, or even Axemen.

Just tech, bronze wk, then iron, while building cities as fast as you can (barracks in all working highest production square..don't bother with anything but production except in capital) with no need for infrastructure (so only worker in capital), then go and kill one of your AI neighbours...it'll work 95 out of 100 times...the only downside is you completely forgo science for a while, and will soon be running 10 or 0%, but then use the captured workers to help build up your cities...

The above reason is why I like playing the Aztecs..

The above reason is also why I hate playing the Aztecs....

To me the method detailed above is the best way to make use of the Jag's major real strength, it's resourchlessness. To make it any better AND make it available without metal, would make it far too powerful.

arghhhhhh another thread on Jaguars !!!!!! Its either someone saying its the worst UU or its useless.

I think Jarrod Sums it up in an nutshell. Its a case of using the UU to its advantage using slavery and fact it does not need to be connected to iron. If you manage to find some jungle its an added bonus. It discussed elsewhere if resourceless Jaguars were available with bronze working the unit would be far too overpowering.

Honestly . . . why in the world should the jaguar be anywhere beyond bronze working? The aztecs barely had bronze when they were destroyed by the treacherous spanish conquistadors. As for the rest I'd suggest a rebalance . . . For both historical and game play reasons. Give them something earlier on, but which is balanced to be both useful and easy to build.

DrewBledsoe said:

Just tech, bronze wk, then iron, while building cities as fast as you can (barracks in all working highest production square..don't bother with anything but production except in capital) with no need for infrastructure (so only worker in capital), then go and kill one of your AI neighbours...it'll work 95 out of 100 times...the only downside is you completely forgo science for a while, and will soon be running 10 or 0%, but then use the captured workers to help build up your cities...

The above reason is why I like playing the Aztecs..

The above reason is also why I hate playing the Aztecs....

To me the method detailed above is the best way to make use of the Jag's major real strength, it's resourchlessness. To make it any better AND make it available without metal, would make it far too powerful.

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though you're a technically sound quarterback, mr. bledsoe, you tend to make poor decisions when the game is on the line. such as the jag rush. if, instead of getting iron working, you build a few workers and a chopped a stack of axes, you'd kill your enemies faster and have some basic infrastructure to boot.

naterator said:

though you're a technically sound quarterback, mr. bledsoe, you tend to make poor decisions when the game is on the line. such as the jag rush. if, instead of getting iron working, you build a few workers and a chopped a stack of axes, you'd kill your enemies faster and have some basic infrastructure to boot.

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But your missing the point, for that you need first copper, and then each and every city connected to said copper, and therefore takes much, much longer...also you then have to leave a large enough army lying around your home territory to defend against the barbarians, who are at that time generally a much bigger threat than ANY of your AI opponents (I'm talking huge maps / marathon here)..

By not bothering with infrastructure, you have nothing to defend apart from the cities themselves, and therefore can throw everything you've got at the AI..with slavery, you can even leave some cities completely empty (as long as theyre pop 2 or more) knowing you can pop rush a defender if needs be..with 2 workers grouped, you can also chop jags from each and every city as needed (forgot to put that in original post)..

The main thing here, is the speed which you can amass a large army and set it to work. Unless you fluke copper very close to your capital, and even then you may have to build a city in a compromised long term position just to get it without a border expansion, and then connect it to all your cities, and then defend each route (cos obviously a break in the link stops axe production in its tracks to the affected cities)..then by the time you're ready to go, the Jags have already destroyed a civilization.

I don't really enjoy playing the Aztecs much these days, because Jag rushing is really the only way to justify their UU, and makes them one dimensional..

And btw, researching mining, bw, iw isn't exactly a lengthy tech path

Jarrod32 said:

It is not about not having iron (though there may be something to be said about the risk insurance against not having metals)...it is about being able to whip out about a half dozen jags in the time it would take to get a settler to the iron and the worker turns to get it hooked up.

It is about building jags in cities that are not connected to your iron (such as newly conquered cities).

It is the fact that the jags are cheaper than swordsmen.

If you have to have a unit that gives you extra strength in order to understand how to use it, then you probably won't be able to figure out how to utilize the advantages the jag gives you.

No, it is not the best UU. But it is far from being the worst. It has significant advantages that can be exploited for a considerable advantage...if you understand how to do it. If you can't figure it out, then you will probably continue to think that the Jag sucks.

And that is fine. To each their own.

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Nicely put

@naterator: You are missing the point completely. That says to me that you haven't even bothered to try and find the Jaguars strength.

@DrewBledsoe: Everyone who hasn't given the Jaguar a real go misses the point.

I am getting rather sick of the Jag threads because the people who have a problem with Jaguar are the same people who look at the Jag, compare its strength reduction with the Swordsmen, its cost and effectiveness with the Axemen, and then judge that it isn't good. They completely miss how powerful a resourceless unit is.... it's like conquering cities with Archers, where every new city that you conquer can immediately start producing city killers, which can then be used to take over more cities. Infrastructure is not needed. It can create a rather fast conquest game which just overwhelmes the map with Jaguars. Think of them as ants. And the fact that you make lots of them and that they attack with a reduced strength results in them promoting faster and thus reaching a higher level much quicker. I quite often end up with Combat V, March Jaguars.

@DrewBledsoe: Yeah, they are a little one dimensional.

Watiggi

@naterator: You are missing the point completely. That says to me that you haven't even bothered to try and find the Jaguars strength.

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i've definitly jaguar rushed, watiggi, at your suggestion on one of the other threads on the same subject. i've even enjoyed some success. but i still find it to be far superior to just do a plain old axe rush. infrastructure and barbarians aren't big problems for me. if no copper, then i go for iron working, lather, rinse, repeat, as suggested; but i'll still build axes generally in my connected cities, and pop rush jags in my new conquests. honestly, i'd rather pop an archer or 2 and keep my axe stack moving. it's not that we haven't tried them, we just want UU's that improve upon their regular unit. and of course we judge it's strength against swordsmen, and cost + effectiveness vs. axemen, it does replace swordsmen at the cost of axemen, so the comparison is natural.
again, it's not that i haven't weighed their usefullness, it's that they generally fall short of their alternatives. i know iron working isn't that expensive, but the time taken to research it does somewhat mitigate the usefulness of the jag.


tom brady rules!

Definately a very strong unit at the time it appears (guess that's the whole point!)

I've played as Monty on Earth Maps and successfully wiped out the Inca's and Americans and had 1000 years to build cities and techs before the Europeans turned up - all thanks to the other AmeroCivs having no answer to the Jaguar!!!

Useful against Barbs too, with that jungle defense bonus.