ALC Game #6 Pre-Game Show: playing as Louis

In the next ALC game, I'll be playing as Louis XIV, leader of France.

The fact sheet:

• Traits: Creative and Industrious
• Starting Techs: Agriculture and The Wheel
• Unique Unit: Musketeer (Strength: 9, Movement: 2, Cost: 80)

The poll results are in and I will be playing as the Sun King in the next All-Leaders Challenge game. This pre-game thread is for us to brainstorm some potential strategies, and especially to discuss how to make the best use of the chosen leader's individual characteristics.

Louis' traits are almost a builder's dream. Industrious, of course, means that Wonders are cheaper and faster to build. On top of that, so are Forges, which makes building everything cheaper and faster! And if gems, silver, or gold are available, Forges provide a happiness bonus. I think I should, therefore, plan on pursuing some Wonders--carefully selected, of course (though I think I just HAVE to build Versailles). One very attractive route is to build the Oracle for a Metal Casting slingshot to get the Forges early (and it's on the path to Gunpowder and the UU). I don't think I can rely on the incredible luck I had in the Qin game to pull off a Machinery slingshot again, though. Ever.

Creative means fast border expansion, plus cheap Theatres and Colosseums. I do not think that Creative automatically lends itself to a Cultural victory, however. +2 culture per turn is not very much in the long run. To me, Creative means that Stonehenge is optional, Obelisks are definitely not required, and you can land-grab early on with just a few cities. It also means captured cities recover their territory quickly after the rebellion ends. Also, you can place cities without sweating so much about whether a key resource is within the first ring or not, so the trait lends itself to optimal city placement.

I think Louis' traits offer a lot of flexibility. You can pursue almost any strategy and win condition you want, I think, by carefully exploiting those traits. More importantly, unlike some traits like Aggressive or Organized, you are not necessarily pulled in a particular direction (i.e. war) by Louis' traits.

Perhaps, then, we should try something different in this game--a long-term win strategy, say Diplomatic? Depending on the map, the neighbours, and so on, of course.

As for opening techs, France starts with two of the most practical: the Wheel and Agriculture. I can choose to build a Worker first thing if I want, since he'll always have something to do, right from the get-go. I'll be hoping for, and maybe looking for, a farmable resource within the capital's fat cross. While Bronze Working will be a little more work without Mining, these starting techs also put us very close to Pottery and Animal Husbandry.

Combined with the Creative trait, I think the starting techs point towards quick, early expansion. Early farms mean faster production of Workers and Settlers, as well as faster population growth for you-know-what: The Warriors' explorations should be focused on finding city sites, and not running after goody huts. Yes, I'm lecturing myself.

Now, about the Unique Unit. Confession time: I NEVER build Musketmen, which I consider one of the most useless units in the game. They're only 1 point stronger than Macemen. Granted, they do benefit, in fights with those units, from the fact that they are not melee units, which negates the Mace's bonus. But the problem is that Musketmen are one of the very few units with absolutely no other bonus; no first strike chance, no city/hills defense bonus...nothing.

The Musketeers' sole benefit over Musketmen is they have 2 moves per turn--the only foot/gunpowder unit with that advantage. And unlike almost all other fast-moving units, Muskets can still use the benefit of defensive terrain. The other overall advantage is that Muskets are available much earlier than other gunpowder units. So it really comes down to speed, doesn't it? Get Gunpowder as early as possible, and the fast-moving Musketeers can get into the thick of things quickly.

So...I will be interested to hear from everyone regarding how I should best take advantage of Musketeers. A bee-line to Gunpowder is probably in order, and that's a much more streamlined and focused path than the one to Redcoats that I outlined in the Vicky game thread. Correct me if I'm wrong here:

Tech paths to Gunpowder:

Route 1: via Guilds

• Mining
• Bronze Working
• Pottery
• Meditation
• Priesthood
• Writing
• Metal Casting
• Monarchy
• Machinery
• Feudalism
• Guilds
• Gunpowder

Route 2: via Education

• Agriculture, the Wheel (starting techs)
• Pottery
• Meditation
• Priesthood
• Writing
• Code of Laws
• Civil Service
• Paper
• Education
• Gunpowder

Wow. Path 2 is VERY streamlined, but it may be difficult to survive on that handful of techs until Musketeers come along.

Thoughts?

don't avoid military until musketeers, but do go the second route. oracle--> CoL not MC. CS sling if ~2 gold or similar in capital fatcross.

i would do something like this: mining-bronze-myst-medit-priest-writing-CoL(from oracle)-alphabet (trade for: pottery, anhusb, ironwork, etc.)-CS (use great prophet on it)-other stuff you need (eg., math, etc.)-paper-education-philosophy (use a great scientist on it)-liberalism-free tech-gunpowder

imo, i agree with someone on these forums who said that a great way to use musketeers is as raiders. move-pillage-move-pillage-move-pillage-etc.

The tech path will probably have to be decided based on the available resources and rivals you are up against. If you have aggressive AI neighbors there's no way can you ignore military for that long. I'm not sure that non-aggressive AIs would leave you alone if you just have warriors while they are fielding axemen or better. There is also the Barbarian factor to consider.

Going path 2 via education sounds good; being more streamlined means you can afford occasional diversions. Alphabet sounds worth diverting for; advantage of a beeline means you should have tradeable techs. Worth checking out slinsghots on the path to speed things along. Also worth looking at relevant wonders and GP points. Expanding towards neighbours then backfill is something you've rarely tried in initial expansion in ALC so could be worth a go.

There is only one advantage of a musketeer. The 2 point move cost.

Why is this good? Well... Why are war chariots good? because of a high power for the time, 2 movement, and cheap. Musketeers are advantagious because of high power for the time (hopefully you get gunpowder earlier than AI, but DONT beeline, its better to go balanced), 2 movement, and as cheap as regular musketman and cheaper for rifleman.

However, it's really not my favorite UU, and reliance on it probably isn't a good strategy, though it is nice to use them supplementary to get the final push you need.

Musketeers make superior pillagers, excellent rapid-response defensive units, or a potent assault force. Get them early enough, and you can crush your neighbors mid-game.

With France, I'd ignore macemen and knights, and head for musketeers instead.

If you can, I'd go for a Civil Service slingshot. Since you can ignore Stonehenge, it might be possible. The Education path is better for beelining towards Gunpowder, since you don't need Guilds for knights.

Eggolas said:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=170159&highlight=Musketeer

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Are you suggesting that this is a good idea or the opposite? I skimmed the first page of the thread when you mentioned it earlier, and it seemed like the unanimous conclusion is that a musketeer rush is a bad idea. I'd have to say that agrees with my intuition.

Musketeers don't really even negate the maceman's melee bonus, because macemen negate the bonus. Maceman vs. maceman means no bonus. Musketeers can't get city raider, and I don't think any older units upgrade to musketeers. So there's very little that a promoted maceman can't do as well or nearly as well as a musketeer.

Like Sisiutil, I almost never build musketmen. About the only time I do is if I need a defensive unit, and I want a cheaper upgrade to rifleman than I would get from a longbow. Musketeers are a crappy unit that moves fast. Whatever. I'd rather have a good, slow unit than a bad, fast one.

Yeah, I'd avoid a Musketeer Rush, Muskets are like Longbows, they are Defensive. The extra move can help in Pillaging/Stack defending/rushing City Garrisons for new conquest to the Front. (The fact is they can't really attack a Longbow city well)

(if you really want a Musketeer Rush it would probably be)
CS slingshot with Oracle and Prophet (so yes to Stonehenge)
CS->Paper
get Literature for Glibrary... Scientist to help with Education
Gunpowder

I would go for the Oracle->Metal Casting though, Forges are especially nice with Whipping.

With Creative, I'd go for a REX->axe rush one opponent... of course Industrious tends to work against that... arguing for REX->Early Wonders

I'd base it on the presence of Resources... if your REX phase gives you Stone Definitely go Pyramids... If it Gets you Marble, head for Literature to get easy Epics and Library... (essentially both paths going for a Tech run)

Marble could also enable a Cultural Win (if the Situation supports it) with a nice GA Parthenon... and Sistine

Otherwise go for the Axe Rush, maybe get Monotheism and use the Oracle's Prophet on Theology

If you decide to go Diplomatic, you might not need CoL so early, because you won't be crushing the whole continent. (just one or two 'rogue nations'.. and probably sharing some of the spoils, with a chosen ally)


All in all it depends on the neighbors... I'd say go REX, Research Bronze Working, Pottery, some other Worker techs, and Then head for Priesthood... once the Oracle is done you should have explored +expanded enough to make the decision from there.

With all due respect, the last thing I want to do is avoid Musketeers.

Part of the purpose of playing a game with each leader is to thoroughly explore all of their unique characteristics. Which includes, of course, their unique unit. I got some legitimate complaints after the Cho-Ko-Nus were given short shrift in the Mao game. I attempted to rectify this in the Qin game. And I think we certainly saw a UU exploited to its full potential in the Hapshetsut game.

So I want ideas on how to best use the Musketeers, even if they're considered sub-optimal compared to other units.

Given that they are quickly made obsolete by lowly Grenadiers, I think it makes sense to go after Gunpowder ASAP. They can't be used as city-raiders. They CAN be used defensively, and for pillaging, I'm hearing. So how does that fit with an overall war and game strategy? Are we looking at mid-game harassment and stifling of an opponent rather than conquering, like we talked about for Hatshepsut (but abandoned when the cheap War Chariots proved adept at attacking early cities)? Pointy-stick research as well?

I think the Musketeers could very well be the main feature of this game. I've already played an ALC as a Creative leader and one as an Industrious leader. The most unique thing about Loius, then, is his unit. The fact that it's dismissed makes exploiting it all the more intriguing, and important.

So how do I do that?

Sisiutil said:

With all due respect, the last thing I want to do is avoid Musketeers.

Part of the purpose of playing a game with each leader is to thoroughly explore all of their unique characteristics. Which includes, of course, their unique unit. I got some legitimate complaints after the Cho-Ko-Nus were given short shrift in the Mao game. I attempted to rectify this in the Qin game. And I think we certainly saw a UU exploited to its full potential in the Hapshetsut game.

So I want ideas on how to best use the Musketeers, even if they're considered sub-optimal compared to other units.

Given that they are quickly made obsolete by lowly Grenadiers, I think it makes sense to go after Gunpowder ASAP. They can't be used as city-raiders. They CAN be used defensively, and for pillaging, I'm hearing. So how does that fit with an overall war and game strategy? Are we looking at mid-game harassment and stifling of an opponent rather than conquering, like we talked about for Hatshepsut (but abandoned when the cheap War Chariots proved adept at attacking early cities)? Pointy-stick research as well?

I think the Musketeers could very well be the main feature of this game. I've already played an ALC as a Creative leader and one as an Industrious leader. The most unique thing about Loius, then, is his unit. The fact that it's dismissed makes exploiting it all the more intriguing, and important.

So how do I do that?

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They work well with Cavalry, which isn't far after. They're also good stack defenders, as they do fare better against Macemen(at least defensively) than Macemen. But I certainly wouldn't build the game around them anymore than you built the first one around Jaguars...

Sisiutil said:

Given that they are quickly made obsolete by lowly Grenadiers, I think it makes sense to go after Gunpowder ASAP.

Click to expand...

I think the most basic and universal consensus of the linked thread on the Mouseketeer rush is that balanced is better. Streamlining takes long enough and leaves you lacking in other areas that you really must go with a balanced approach. A balanced "slingshot" would require significant testing. As it is, the thread was based around a statement someone (Aelf maybe?) made that they managed to field Mouseketeers unreasonably early, yet no actual proof was brought forth to support this. What was proven was the numerous drawbacks to a Mouseketeer slingshot.

Sisiutil said:

They can't be used as city-raiders. They CAN be used defensively, and for pillaging, I'm hearing. So how does that fit with an overall war and game strategy? Are we looking at mid-game harassment and stifling of an opponent rather than conquering, like we talked about for Hatshepsut (but abandoned when the cheap War Chariots proved adept at attacking early cities)? Pointy-stick research as well?

Click to expand...

There in lies their problem. They are not effective units for city capturing. Neither are their best supplementary unit, the Knight. Realistically, Macemen and Catapaults make the most ideal city capturing units of the era (despite Mouseketeers being Renaissance units, they're Medieval potency).

What you can do with them is, as you point out, harass. Small stacks of 2-4 units can roam an enemy's countryside and reduce every improvement to rubble while a single stack of Macemen/Catapaults moves to capture or raze only a few number of cities. The only advantage of the Mouseketeer in these small pillage groups is that they will take Pikeman hits in place of the Knights, and they receive defensive bonuses, which basically boils down to them taking hits in place of Knights.

They really do not have any benefits that would make them worth focusing on. CKNs, at the least, had the +50% vs Melee, and saw success prior to the arrival of Longbows as a sort of super-Axemen. Mouseketeers really don't have the slightest window in which to shine. Minor emphasis on pillaging is the most practical role they can play, and should really be the extent to which they are highlighted.

Sisiutil said:

Part of the purpose of playing a game with each leader is to thoroughly explore all of their unique characteristics. Which includes, of course, their unique unit.

Click to expand...

I agree completely, and since my next game after my current one will be with Louis, I'm looking for suggestions on how to use musketeers effectively; however, they do seem like sort of a niche unit.

I got some legitimate complaints after the Cho-Ko-Nus were given short shrift in the Mao game. I attempted to rectify this in the Qin game. And I think we certainly saw a UU exploited to its full potential in the Hapshetsut game.

Click to expand...

True, though if I remember correctly the takeaway after your beeline for Machinery and Cho-Ko-Nus was that it wasn't really a very worthwhile approach. The cost/benefit of the unit versus some of the technologies you needed to pass up wasn't worth it. Didn't your economy go into the tank for a while because of neglected technologies?

They CAN be used defensively, and for pillaging, I'm hearing. So how does that fit with an overall war and game strategy?

Click to expand...

Using them defensively, IMHO means using them to defend a stack of Knights or Cavalry. Their only advantage over regular musketmen is their speed, so using them for city defense or to defend slow units isn't playing to their strength. The main problem with that approach is that they'll outrun your artillery, so that leaves the following options:

• Attack without artillery -- usually a bad idea at that stage of the game. You need some collateral damage to even the odds.
• Wait for the artillery to catch up -- again, wastes the advantage.
• Pillage -- a good idea, but seems like sort of a niche role and not something worth a beeline to Gunpowder.

I like the idea of going for a diplomatic win. And maybe deciding on some juicy wonders to build. As far as the Musketeers, harassment could be a good policy - send them in en masse, ruin the enemy's infrastructure, and then either move in for the kill, or sign a (temporary?) peace treaty after rendering them down to a primitive state.

how about this:

make sure borders are open with the civ you're planning on attacking and scout their territory fully. locate all of their military resources and note them.

when you attack, you have your maces + catas go at their cities as normal, but you send some stacks of 4+/- musketeers to cut off their military resources. and i'm not just talking about pillaging it, since they get defensive bonuses, they can defend the squares as well. this is something horses can't do.

often when battle is done, it's city by city capture (oversimplifying here, but not by much).

so why not use musketeers to quickly go in and take out all military resources (except maybe horses...?) while sending the usual cata+mace stacks at the cities?

You really can't neglect Bronze Working. You'll need the early axes.

Likewise, Code of Laws will be needed before any major expansion, by building or conquest.

I'd say beeline to Bronze then work on path 2. When you get the Oracle, then select Metal Casting for forges. That way, you can work on your infrastructure, but ultimately be ready to fight. The more wonders you build, the more your opponents will look at taking your cities for themselves. Keep at least one city popping out axes at all times would be my guess...

well i just played a sample game with Louis goign for a musketeer rush on monarch. i actually wish i kept a log of the whole thing to get some advice on it. achieved it around 880ad and all the other civs have right now are archers. if my luck holds out i'll be able to get about 5-6 out before they get feudalism. here are some pics







im sure it can be done a lot faster, hell i WOULD have done it a lot faster, but im ambitious. i was going to try and get an education slingshot again, but alas the AI didnt let me get close this time. the way i went about it was use my industious trait to its fullest and pumped out stonehenge and the pyramids early on. i also founded hinduism which quickly spread to my close neighbor the chinese, creating much needed friendly bonus with religion. my whole aim was to get paper as fast as possible and use oracle to get education. the safer bet is to get paper with oracle cause its very hard to tech paper first. maybe if the gold on my hill appeared before 800ad...anyway, the AI got the oracle so that set me back about 20 turns (though my real goal for the game was to try and get education heh). so i finished up CoL after the AI built oracle since my main goal was shot. I also built the parthenon cause i want to pump out lots of GP's since i have both caste system and the pyramids. i also built a library in each city to help with research/GS production. i didnt get BW until probably 400 ad. the AI's fill in all the fog pretty well and the 4 warriors i used to bust it worked pretty effectively. as i said i wish i kept a log since i would love advice on how to improve my game heh. but if you're goign to do this on prince i'd say that you have a very good shot at a musketeer rush.

Here are some thoughts on the diplomatic victory, should you choose to go that route.

On a standard size continents map there are 7 civilizations. You need 62% of the vote to win, so if everything was completely even, you would need 4 1/3 civilizations in your coalition. In practice, that means that if you can take over the territory of one neighbor and court two allies, you should have enough votes. It really isn't necessary to take over the world and do the "back door" pseudo domination approach to diplomacy. You can probably get away with as many as three enemies, but you probably want to limit it to two (by killing the third ).

Votes are based on population. Land mass, number of cities, power, score, etc. have no influence on UN votes. This means that as the game winds to a close, you can increase your voting power by growing your population. Research Biology, research any health or happiness technologies (if those are limiting population growth), turn flatlands into farms, turn hills into windmills. Put everything you can into food. This obviously isn't necessary if you already have the votes to win, and it won't help if you're nowhere near the number, but if you're close it can pick up the extra few votes you need to put you over the top.

Don't forget that your strength comes from your coalition. There's a tendency to get stingy with trading as the game draws to a close. You do need to be careful your "friends" don't do something like launch a spaceship before you can win, but in the same way that you want to grow your own population, you want to make sure your allies are growing theirs too. Give them Biology, any modern happiness resources you have, any health technologies, etc. at bargain prices or as gifts. If your allies' populations are growing, you're benefitting. You also want to makes sure their military power is at least adequate for survival and possibly stronger if you've bribed them into a war.

I really like "true" diplomatic victories. I find them to be much like cultural wins where they require a certain amount of luck before they're possible, but when you get the right circumstances, they feel a little more exciting and different than the standard "kill everyone and take your pick of conquest, domination, or space race" plan.

ya on all of the practice games i've played as louis, continents monarch or prince, the AI's seem to complete the oracle around 700-400BC, 400 if you're lucky heh. however that is enough time to get a paper slingshot, without chopping anything i might add...

Double post, hmmmz, sorry.