Open competition: Earliest pyramids using philosophical civ and no stone

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futurehermit

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A bunch of us are working on a new strat. It's very difficult. So I thought I'd start a competition to see if anyone can improve on what we're doing.

Here is the goal: To build the pyramids by 1000 BC using any philosophical civ and not using stone to help build the pyramids. The difficulty level has to be at least Monarch.

EDIT: A constraint is now being added: You must also have a 2nd city settled by 1000BC!

EDIT 2: A second constraint is now being added: You must be playing on normal speed!

I *just* finished pulling off an 850BC, which ties the current record amongst those of us who are working on it (see my detailed analysis thread). (Edit: Monarch, normal speed, 2 cities)

If you are successful, post a screen shot of the pyramids that shows the date, and then discuss how you did it!

Meanwhile, we can use this thread to discuss potential strategies and whether or not this strat is even possible.

Good luck!
 
Barbs on or off ??


Create a bunch of workers.

Chop, Chop, Chop.



If the goal is to merely build the Pyramids by 1,000 BC. I do not see what the issue is if one is willing to sacrifice other developments. :)
 
futurehermit said:
Barbs on.

If you can do it, post a screenie :)
Click to expand...

I will give it a try this afternoon right after lunch. It sounds like a good challenge that on the surface seems doable, but I know it will be more problematic than I think.

I will post results wheter I get it or not. My plan is as outlined above: Neglect other developments and chop like Paul Bunyan.

Speed settings at any level?
 
I was thinking of speed settings. Do people think the speed would impact the attempt one way or another? I suspect not, but if you think it makes a difference, go for the speed you think is best.
 
Done.



Monarch
Marathon



Two workers, chopping everything in site. I used TWO map regens to get a site with a lot of trees. Ironically, the first maps came up with STONE in the city fatcross and that is one reason why I regenerated.

I kept building the city to POP 3 and then starving them by working the two mines for the hammers. I bounced it all the way back down to POP 1, then built it back up to 3 and then starved them down again for the hammers.

Of course, the rest of the game is probably worthless as I have no infrastructure, so settlers, no buildings and no other plans....but....The Pyramids have been built.
 
drkodos said:
Of course, the rest of the game is probably worthless as I have no infrastructure, so settlers, no buildings and no other plans....but....The Pyramids have been built.
Click to expand...

Yeah, see that's the problem with the way this has been laid out. I think it would be much more reasonable to put a few general constraints on empire quality to make sure you aren't sacrificing too much. For example, you might say that you need to build the Pyramids, at least one military unit, and have at least 2 cities including the capital.

Also, from what you're saying in the other thread, it seems like you want a strategy that can usually build the Pyramids by 1000BC, not one that gets it once in a blue moon when you get the perfect start with a capital built on a plains hill, 2 corn, a copper hill, and forests as far as the eye can see.
 
Dr Elmer Jiggle said:
Yeah, see that's the problem with the way this has been laid out. I think it would be much more reasonable to put a few general constraints on empire quality to make sure you aren't sacrificing too much. For example, you might say that you need to build the Pyramids, at least one military unit, and have at least 2 cities including the capital.

Also, from what you're saying in the other thread, it seems like you want a strategy that can usually build the Pyramids by 1000BC, not one that gets it once in a blue moon when you get the perfect start with a capital built on a plains hill, 2 corn, a copper hill, and forests as far as the eye can see.
Click to expand...


True.

But, look at the start I used. Not one resource in the cross. Not one.

Chopping is good strategy and it works tactically. I grabbed it first try, no reloads, with an average starting position (the floodplains helped to build pop). Also, I did build several military units (one Warrior, one Scout) while researching the tree for BW and Masonry. I used them as Fog Busters. Also, I could have Pop/rushed a settler and still come in @ 1,000 I believe.
 
drkodos said:
But, look at the start I used. Not one resource in the cross. Not one.
Click to expand...

I should have clarified. I didn't mean that your start was one of those perfect cases. I meant that more as a general comment for how the challenge should work. In order for this to be a realistic opening strategy, I think it needs to be something you can count on most of the time, for some definition of "most of the time." I'm thinking a minimum of 50% of the time and probably more like 75-80%.

FWIW, I don't think this link has been posted here yet. The other thread being referenced is Detailed analysis: # of specialist cities needed per era.
 
I think the real crux is if there are any other Industrious CIV around and they have stone it ain't gonna happen, OR if a warmonger like Monty is proximal to the starting position and he needs land.

Other than that, I think regularly grabbing an Early pyramids on Monarch (or lower) is not that farfetched.

Nothing should ever be 100 percent a given on any level. Would make the game too systematic and boring, to me.
 
drkodos said:
I think the real crux is if there are any other Industrious CIV around and they have stone it ain't gonna happen
Click to expand...

I've been thinking this is sort of obvious, and it is, but it might also be an important point. Where does the 1000BC time limit come from? I assume the risk of being beaten by an AI starts growing quickly after that time, but what I'm wondering is, who is beating you? If an AI builds the Pyramids in 950BC, is that an industrious AI with stone or just a regular AI that aggressively pursued the Pyramids.

If it's the former, then I think you can allow yourself more time and just write off that game as a bad break. On Monarch, an industrious AI with stone has a 160% advantage. They're building 2.6 times faster than you can. Trying to find a strategy that can overcome that bonus is crazy.

On the other hand, if 1000BC is the time when a non-industrious civilization with stone or an industrious leader can build the Pyramids, then I think you do need to make sure you can beat them. If it only works in games with no industrious leaders and no stone, then that's kind of pointless.
 
Well, it's kinda hard to tell who is beating you to the pyramids a lot of the time because it often, at least for me, seems to get built on the other continent.

Ok, I'll put a constraint on the challenge: You must also have a second city within this time frame so that you're not totally stifling yourself.


EDIT: Do you think it is easier to pull off on monarch? If so, I might put the constraint on that map speed can't be marathon.
 
futurehermit said:
Well, it's kinda hard to tell who is beating you to the pyramids a lot of the time because it often, at least for me, seems to get built on the other continent.

Ok, I'll put a constraint on the challenge: You must also have a second city within this time frame so that you're not totally stifling yourself.


EDIT: Do you think it is easier to pull off on monarch? If so, I might put the constraint on that map speed can't be marathon.
Click to expand...


Marathon def makes it easier because of worker movement.
 
Well since the Pyramids at Giza were "supposedly" completed around 2560BC, I think the challenge should be to build them by then ;)

What? Why are you looking at me that way :mischief:
 
lmao. if pyramids could be had by 2500BC that...would...be...INSANE!!!

i had a game recently where i got oracle, parthenon, and pyramids with a philosophical civ on monarch (had marble, got pyramids using great engineer from metal casting [forge] at around 750 BC).

that is so insane, it's unbelievable: representation for scientist-based economy, parthenon + philosophical for 150% bonus to base super scientist production, early metal casting for forges and also an expensive tech for trading, plus denying the ai three early wonders, the list goes on and on :D
 
futurehermit said:
Well, it's kinda hard to tell who is beating you to the pyramids a lot of the time because it often, at least for me, seems to get built on the other continent.
Click to expand...

Understood. For test games, you could pop open the World Builder as soon as you get the message about the Pyramids being built, but in general it might not be obvious. Even when you know who built it, you might not have enough information to know whether they had stone hooked up without the World Builder.
 
Yeah, I don't really know how the world builder thing works so I haven't used it to check.

The bottom line for me is that I see pyramids being built by 1000BC often enough to know that every turn after that is a risk.
 
In my custom changes I'm planning to switch the cost of the Pyramids and the Oracle as well as change the effect of the Pyramids and the Hagia Sophia. Interesting changes, but it would allow the Pyramids to be built at a historically accurate time at least!
 
I kinda feel like pyramids are too expensive for an early wonder, but considering their impact...no wonder (pardon the pun).
 
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