War and Peace

After 6 turns of the turnchat (19 July - here), Bismarck demanded Philosophy for peace.

I stopped the turnchat at this point.

Our troops were suffering badly. The plan had been that once we had kept of the Germans we would take revenge and attack Berlin. However, Bismarck brought up large numbers of horse archers, most of whom had 2 promotions. We had very few spears and suffered quite badly. The units I had hoped to attack with either were being attacked themselves or had to help other defenders.

You can see from the screenshots that Bismarck is sending another formidable force.

The question is: do we want peace, or will we continue the war?

And following on from that, what is the way forward?

My personal view is that we take peace. We don't have the troops to keep defending against the numbers Bismarck is throwing at us. We haven't had enough spears, though Bismarck is throwing more than just horses at us. Given their promotions though, we are at a serious disadvantage.

Looking at the power graph, Bismarck is still pulling away from us, so it is only going to get worse.

However, even if we get peace, we can't stop building troops. We might consider disbanding some cats to save maintenance, but we still need some spears and maces when we get Feudalism.

Any other thoughts?

Can we get peace for nothing...?

At soon to be 20% science rate...we are not going to be able to field many modern troops..we will be out teched soon.

I say peace...even if we have to give tech. Theres a time for fighting and theres a time for being the whipping boy...take our licks, heal our wounds and take care of Germany later.

Damn it, I didn't see that coming at all.
I say peace to, Philosophy isn't worth getting whipped for.

Yeah, give him philo for peace and we'll have a chance to catch our breath. We can continue to build troops during the ceasefire of course. We can do this to take Berlin eventually, perhaps. Do we think Bis will keep building troops?

I think he will..

But if we can attack at a time of our choosing..we can have control better than a surprise attack on our people. Its all about having war when you want it even if you are undermanned.

Peace might be the only way to save Bascilica. Bismark's horse are a pain, but he has had time to build a force, and cats and swords, if not maces, are on their way for sure. Also, if we can pillage his horse resource, which is just over the border, when we attack again, this might slow him down a bit.

Take the peace.

Add an entry to the Book of Grudges.

We WILL remind Bismark of this mistake later on.

-- Ravensfire

Wow, we're in pretty bad shape!

We need to chart a course out of this problem before we go any farther. With both economic and military difficulties, it's back to looking like we might have a demogame first -- loss. Maybe we can find a miracle worker who is willing to lead us back from the brink of disaster.

We pretty much have to take the peace, it will get even worse if we don't.

anybody know that miracle worker...

Is this where we finally find religion?

see my post in the economy thread....
It sorta combines both the economy and war together.

robboo, I've replied to you there.

Great Atlas updated to 1382 AD (July 19).

If we do decide to go for peace, my plan would be to strengthen the cities and to place troops at strategic points on the German border in case hostilities start again. I think we need to keep building some units.

I'll try and have a think about 2 possible plans tomorrow: peace or all out war. I think we should have a full discussion about either one and include the issue of the economy etc as well before we decide how to proceed.

If we do sign a peacetreaty. Are we going to aim for a lasting peace or just buy us some time until the next war and we can prepare ourselves.

I thik we prepare ourselves, repair ourselves and try to look bigger than what we are. Then see what we want to do

War Plan

OK folks, this is a proposed war plan. It assumes we sign a peace treaty with Germany and then strengthen ourselves for a retaliatory attack upon Berlin.

The idea would be to strengthen a number of Defensive Points to cover ourselves, with the 2 points closest to Germany being the launching point for the counter-attack. Here is a map:

I'm assuming that when we sign the peace treaty that our troops in Germany will return to Licentia and vice-versa.

Def1 and Def4 are to cover flanking attacks from Bismarck. They have already proved useful in this war and we will be vulnerable without at least one defensive unit at each of these points. Def5 is for a couple of horse archers to be a mobile reserve force to cover problems and possibly join the attack if all goes well. Def2 and Def3 support Basillica as well as being launching points for a counter-offensive.


Plan for Current Troops

Basillica
Crossbow
Axe
Spear
Archer x2

Def1
Crossbow from 1W

Def2 (& attack)
Crossbow (to remain in defence)
Horse arch from 3W
Cat x2
Archer
Spear from 2N

Def3 (& attack)
Horse arch from Basillica
Cat from near NPC
Cat x2 from Germany

Def4
Archer

Def5
Horse arch from 1NE
Horse arch from 2N1E of Abydos


Military build queue

Numbers in first set of parentheses are turns to build. Numbers in second set are approx times to reach the points I've indicated.

BW: horse arch (4) to Def 2 or 3 (further 7ish)
Red Dot: archer will be garrison
NPC: spear (5) to Def2 (further 8ish)
OS: horse arch (1) to Def3 (further 2ish)
TU: sword (8) to Def3 (further 3ish)
Bas: Spear (8) to Def3 (further 2ish)
CF: Spear (5) to Def2 (further 3ish)

Mayber free up road build guard (archer and axe) if workers move further back or war goes well.


We need

More cats (2?)
2 more spears (defence and backup)
Need some Cover promos to defend against longbows, therefore start with Combat I
Some longbows of our own (3? - 1 for defence, 1 for each attack)
More swords to support attack (2?)

Given that maces are so far away, I think we could do with a few more axes (3?) to counter any melee units.

I think this may be enough to start an attack (although having seen what German troops can do, that may be optimistic), but then we'd need to be building a spear, cat, crossbow, horse arch and sword as replacements which we could draft in.

I think it will take 15 to 20 turns to be ready.


Techs

Can forget maces and knights - 34/41 turns before we can start building respectively (incl Feudalism time).
Can build longbows in 8 turns


OK, what do you all think? I'd particularly welcome advice on whether you think I'm being too optimistic or pessimistic. I think the counter-attack is a very risky plan. However, we may need to take that risk.

If anyone feels we should poll this plan before we carry it out, go ahead - I won't be offended.

Looks pretty good structurally, OB. Well done.

This looks good, but I do have a question. Why not use crossbowmen instead of axes. crossbows are stronger by 1 pt, get a first strike and have a +50% against melee units. Of course, they cost more (35 to 60).

I can see the benefits of building more axemen and overwhelming by numbers.

Also, recall that 4 cats with accuracy promotion can strip defenses in 1 turn. I suggest having this ability since we'll need those defenses down all the way to fight longbowmen. Also, Biz has Chichen Itsa.

Fetch said:

This looks good, but I do have a question. Why not use crossbowmen instead of axes. crossbows are stronger by 1 pt, get a first strike and have a +50% against melee units. Of course, they cost more (35 to 60).

I can see the benefits of building more axemen and overwhelming by numbers.

Click to expand...

A good question and one I'll have to think about (I don't have Civ just now to take a look. The length of time to build is definitely a factor. I'm willing to be patient, but of course Bismarck is likely to have more defenders.

I think a big factor in favour of building crossbows is that we don't have money to upgrade units, so it is better to build more advanced units. Anyone else have an opinion on this?

Fetch said:

Also, recall that 4 cats with accuracy promotion can strip defenses in 1 turn. I suggest having this ability since we'll need those defenses down all the way to fight longbowmen. Also, Biz has Chichen Itsa.

Click to expand...

Yes - I think I would have done this anyway. I like Cats with combinations of accuracy and bombard II (I think) to get defence reducing and collateral units. If I've got extra cats on top, then they get combat or city raid (if they can have it ??? ) to form suicide units.

Axemen can get City raider promotions, and they simple rock.
About the cats, why not give some first strikes, because a suicede cat will hit all but the strongest unit with colletaral, first strikes are good to hit those strong first defenders.