So why DOES Tokugawa always lose?

Veritass

Veritass

Emperor
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
1,198
Location
Southern California
I know it's mainly the isolationism, but what is the game mechanism involved?

My guess is something like: he never opens borders, so religions don't spread to him, so he can't build enough temples to keep all the people happy, so he can't grow the cities past a certain point, and he fizzles out in the mid-game.

Plus, of course, the AI doesn't do a good enough just with any civ's unique unit. Samurais can do a good mid-game push if applied right.

Is there more to it than just the mechanism I described?
What about similar flaws in other civs?
I want to make sure I don't emulate these mistakes.
 
He also doesn't tech trade, and the complete lack of trade hampers his economy. He also, as you surmised, has resource problems, further hampering his growth. He can; however, be quite dangerous if a religion spreads to him. Imagine my horror when I'm isolated on my own continent and Toku shows up with a SIX tech lead. Procuring maps showed me what had happened...it would've been happy-hippy peace land, except Toku had done a lot of conquering, and the religion modifier smoothed over relations, so he was tech-trading and had open borders in addition to having nearly as much land as me. Very strange...
 
Stickler point: Religion will spread without open borders, just at a slower pace. You only need a trade route :traderoute: connection to a a civ/city with a religion.
 
I tend to find Toku is an all or nothing type of player -- usually nothing. Most games he'll be a non-issue, but occassionally, when conditions hit just right, he'll be a hellian.

In fact, I find most of the Aggressive AI's that way. Monty and the Khans can be really dangerous early. But if you can survive them until well into the Middle Ages, their huge armies drag them down and make them easy pickings for later tech conquests. It's pretty rare for either of them to be a late game power in my games.

Alex and Nappy are a bit different though. They seem to be capable of good staying power throughout the entire game.
 
Well he's owned me on more then one occasion with those Samurai by stabbing me in the back...
 
Pendle Witch said:
On my current Prince game, Toku is about to complete a domination win in about 1920 ........... :p
Click to expand...

I don't think playing as Toku counts ;).
 
Tokugawa tends to do so poorly (as an AI) because he refuses to trade anything. He loses the tech lead early on and just keeps slipping behind for the rest of the game.

With good relations with him, he'll only just start trading resources.
 
They were a pretty late starter, tech wise, in real life. If you want, you can imagine Japan stagnating and falling behind (the way you see it in the game)at least until the Meiji revolution, where they basically had a golden age to start catching up to the civilizations that developed capitalism early (10-12 Century Northern Italy, then the Dutch and English in the 13th-15th Century, and later spreading to other parts of Europe, then finally hitting the rest of the world in the past century or two). Though they were one of the first Asian nations to start modernizing, it definitely was much later than the Dutch.

Ooh, ooh! Put in Toku's personality code "the Meiji Era (golden age) fix" if they are too far behind in tech by 1868! (yeah, yeah, I know the Meiji Restoration replaced the Tokugawa Shogunate, but there's no provision for changing Civ leaders).
 
If Tokugawa is anywhere near me at the start, he dies first. I don' t want him around with Samurai.
 
DigitalBoy said:
Tokugawa tends to do so poorly (as an AI) because he refuses to trade anything. He loses the tech lead early on and just keeps slipping behind for the rest of the game.

With good relations with him, he'll only just start trading resources.
Click to expand...

I've had him and Louis XIV in a three way Defensive Pact in a Monarch level game ... I admit though I nearly fell off my chair when he agreed.
 
Tokugawa is basically programmed to be backwards. The basic underlying game mechanic relates to some of the current discussion of a specialist versus a Cottage based economy.

To begin with, if you check Tokugawa's leader head info in the CIVLeaderHeadInfos.XML file, you'll find a glaring backwards tendency, which is his basic refusal to trade techs.

<iTechTradeKnownPercent>100</iTechTradeKnownPercent>

This is actually the highest limit of any of the AI leaders on tech trade. I believe the meaning of it is that he is only willing to trade a tech to a given leader if every other leader known to Tokugawa except the target leader already has it, though it is possible that the value of 100% means that Tokugawa will never trade a tech away.

Compare that to the most notorious tech trader, Mansa Musa, who has a TechTradeKnownPercent value of 0, which I assume means he is willing to trade all techs under general circumstances, including if he is Annoyed with you.

Continuing through the XML file, you find the more important causes to Tokugawa's backwardness, though it is slightly less noticable. These causes work in tandem to lead to his backwards nature.

Tokugawa's two flavors are Military and Science. In fact, in an almost ironic turn, it seems he's more disposed to Science than to Military, though there's a chance I am wrong in this. Anyway, Tokugawa is oriented towards Science, yet not towards commerce generation. He is not a Financial leader, nor is he particularly oriented towards Gold.

It has been proven that a Cottage economy is more powerful than a specialist economy, except under Representation prior to (roughly) Printing Press and/or Free Speech. The only way to utilize Representation so early is by constructing The Pyramids. However, Tokugawa has a low chance of even starting The Pyramids. He is not Industrious. If you check the XML file, you'll notice his random chance to construct a wonder is relatively low.

<iWonderConstructRand>20</iWonderConstructRand>

Compare that to the most wonder driven leader, Louis XIV, who's WonderConstructRand value is 50. Not only that, Tokugawa's favorite civic is Mercantilism, not one of the Government civics, so he has even less inclination to build The Pyramids in order to access his favorite civic earlier. Compare that to Cyrus, for example, who's WonderConstructRand value is 40 (quite high, overall), and who's favorite civic is Representation. Cyrus is very much interested in building The Pyramids in order to run Representation in a specialist based economy.

If you notice when you invade Tokugawa, he tends to have a very high amount of Farms, and far fewer Cottages. This is because he's not interested in accumulating wealth (ie a Gold flavor), yet he is interested in research (ie a Science flavor), and he does so by running a specialist based economy, hence the high number of Farms. He can actually maintain a slightly larger empire than most by accepting a lower science rate through the commerce slider. He makes up for the lower science rate via commerce by running specialists. However, his overall research rate is certainly lower than that of a Cottage based economy because he is not running Representation.

To sum it up, Tokugawa is backwards for the following reasons.
  • He prefers to run a specialist economy.
  • He is not inclined to build The Pyramids.
  • A specialist based economy without Representation is weaker than a Cottage based economy.
  • He is antisocial, and he does not like to engage in tech trading.

All of these reasons combine to leave Tokugawa running the poorest type of economy, while not compensating for this by engaging in tech trading.
 
Nares said:
Tokugawa is basically programmed to be backwards. The basic underlying game mechanic relates to some of the current discussion of a specialist versus a Cottage based economy.

To begin with, if you check Tokugawa's leader head info in the CIVLeaderHeadInfos.XML file, you'll find a glaring backwards tendency, which is his basic refusal to trade techs.

<iTechTradeKnownPercent>100</iTechTradeKnownPercent>

This is actually the highest limit of any of the AI leaders on tech trade. I believe the meaning of it is that he is only willing to trade a tech to a given leader if every other leader known to Tokugawa except the target leader already has it, though it is possible that the value of 100% means that Tokugawa will never trade a tech away.

Compare that to the most notorious tech trader, Mansa Musa, who has a TechTradeKnownPercent value of 0, which I assume means he is willing to trade all techs under general circumstances, including if he is Annoyed with you.

Continuing through the XML file, you find the more important causes to Tokugawa's backwardness, though it is slightly less noticable. These causes work in tandem to lead to his backwards nature.

Tokugawa's two flavors are Military and Science. In fact, in an almost ironic turn, it seems he's more disposed to Science than to Military, though there's a chance I am wrong in this. Anyway, Tokugawa is oriented towards Science, yet not towards commerce generation. He is not a Financial leader, nor is he particularly oriented towards Gold.

It has been proven that a Cottage economy is more powerful than a specialist economy, except under Representation prior to (roughly) Printing Press and/or Free Speech. The only way to utilize Representation so early is by constructing The Pyramids. However, Tokugawa has a low chance of even starting The Pyramids. He is not Industrious. If you check the XML file, you'll notice his random chance to construct a wonder is relatively low.

<iWonderConstructRand>20</iWonderConstructRand>

Compare that to the most wonder driven leader, Louis XIV, who's WonderConstructRand value is 50. Not only that, Tokugawa's favorite civic is Mercantilism, not one of the Government civics, so he has even less inclination to build The Pyramids in order to access his favorite civic earlier. Compare that to Cyrus, for example, who's WonderConstructRand value is 40 (quite high, overall), and who's favorite civic is Representation. Cyrus is very much interested in building The Pyramids in order to run Representation in a specialist based economy.

If you notice when you invade Tokugawa, he tends to have a very high amount of Farms, and far fewer Cottages. This is because he's not interested in accumulating wealth (ie a Gold flavor), yet he is interested in research (ie a Science flavor), and he does so by running a specialist based economy, hence the high number of Farms. He can actually maintain a slightly larger empire than most by accepting a lower science rate through the commerce slider. He makes up for the lower science rate via commerce by running specialists. However, his overall research rate is certainly lower than that of a Cottage based economy because he is not running Representation.

To sum it up, Tokugawa is backwards for the following reasons.
  • He prefers to run a specialist economy.
  • He is not inclined to build The Pyramids.
  • A specialist based economy without Representation is weaker than a Cottage based economy.
  • He is antisocial, and he does not like to engage in tech trading.

All of these reasons combine to leave Tokugawa running the poorest type of economy, while not compensating for this by engaging in tech trading.
Click to expand...

Excellent summary, possibly the only thing you missed, is that to go with the farms, Tok unlike many of the other civs, WILL build a lot of mines, wkshops, watermills, and later lumbermills.

This means that it is much more possible for him to quickly produce an army than many other civs (India are the classic example of building "x" number of troops, and when this is deemed enough for defence will stop, and do nothing but upgrade, until non-upgradable new units are needed). and therefore Tok often is near the top of military strength, regardless of amount of land / cities. I presume this drains his meager science output further still, even though it gives him the ability to go to war with whoever he chooses at a moments notice, which of course he often does.
 
the thing with toku is that if he's able to conquer a holy city and gain a religion he's good. If he can keeps the wheel in motion and keep conquering he can be pretty much set.
 
T_Raccoon said:
the thing with toku is that if he's able to conquer a holy city and gain a religion he's good. If he can keeps the wheel in motion and keep conquering he can be pretty much set.
Click to expand...
I've found this is true of most aggressive AIs. Not really the holy city factor, just that they need momentum. They either become very backwards with an out of date army. Or they can become a steamroller and destroy most of their computer neighbors. Genghis/Monty/Alexander/Nappy have all completely taken over the other continent before in my games. More often they flame out but sometimes it works for them.
 
Araqiel said:
I've found this is true of most aggressive AIs. Not really the holy city factor, just that they need momentum. They either become very backwards with an out of date army. Or they can become a steamroller and destroy most of their computer neighbors. Genghis/Monty/Alexander/Nappy have all completely taken over the other continent before in my games. More often they flame out but sometimes it works for them.
Click to expand...


Yeah, Computer Neighbors. Because If they get me, there would be a New Game Started. :lol:
 
Is it in the coding to always start Civilizations with fishing on the coast and with a seafood? Everytime I play as Japan, I start by the ocean with clams or fish(never crabs, though).
 
I've been experimenting with tech trading off a lot lately, and Toku has gone quite well in the games he's in, giving credence to the hypothesis that tech trading is a big factor.

Wodan
 
Wodan said:
I've been experimenting with tech trading off a lot lately, and Toku has gone quite well in the games he's in, giving credence to the hypothesis that tech trading is a big factor.
Click to expand...

There may be something to that. Sirian has stated elsewhere that the AI will perform better with tech trading turned off than with it turned on, though I do think the overriding factor here is that Tokugawa attempts to run a specialist based economy with very few Cottages and without early Representation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

AcaMetis
Nobles' Club 367: Tokugawa of Japan
2 3
Replies
41
Views
4K
skarpa
S
P
Noob needs help: hit plateau at Prince difficulty
4 5 6
Replies
110
Views
10K
pigswill
pigswill
pietro1990
my first opinion of civ 7
Replies
0
Views
468
pietro1990
pietro1990
F
Space samurai
Replies
0
Views
616
Fins
F
AcaMetis
Nobles' Club 315: Tokugawa of Japan
2 3
Replies
50
Views
7K
Mr_Trotsky
M
Back
Top Bottom