CS Slingshot?

Well this is going to sound like a really noobish question but what exactly is involved in the stratigy call the CS Slingshot?

It's a bunch of people who think they are cool by using it (so they say they did), that's all, I wouldn't learn to depend on it.

There are a few existing threads on this already, but in essence it is finding a way to accelerate your way to discovering the relatively expensive Civil Service technology.

This can be done a few different ways, but common approaches include;

. Using The Oracle wonder to discover this technology for free. Civil Service must be a technology on your 'roster', so you'll need the prerequisite technologies.

. Using Stonehenge's Great Prophets to discover Code of Laws and then most of the required for Civil Service (requires you not to possess Masonry but to possess Meditation, Polytheism and Priesthood).

It's not so much about being "cool" as gaining an advantage. An Oracle-powered CS Slingshot is relatively easy to accomplish on the lower levels (Noble and below), difficult if not impossible on the higher levels.

On Noble and below you have time to research a couple of key technologies such as Bronze Working (especially since it helps you chop the Oracle), the Wheel for roads, and maybe a worker tech or two depending on the resources at hand--try to get pre-requisites for Writing (Agriculture or Fishing, then Pottery). Then it's Mysticism -> Meditation or Polytheism -> Priesthood, Writing (and any of its pre-requisites), Code of Laws. Ideally you want to finish researching CoL and building the Oracle on the same turn.

On higher levels, it's usually safer to use the Oracle for Code of Laws, then use a Great Prophet to help research Civil Service. You have to avoid researching Masonry to have the Great Prophet give you that tech.

You also have to make sure you take advantage of it if you accomplish it. You should switch to Bureaucracy right away, start looking at where you can "link" farms for irrigation, and research to Machinery for Macemen.

I should point out that there are other ways of doing it. Two further options;

. If you have both Theology and Code of Laws and yet not access to Divine Right, Civil Service should be your Great Prophet's technology option, so you can have Masonry and still get a slingshot. Masonry is avoided because it takes you down the Monotheism-Theology path. If you self-research Code of Laws and build The Oracle for Theology for instance, you can still burn a Great Prophet on Civil Service.

. Running Specialist Priests (e.g. via Temples) will put points towards a Great Prophet also, so you don't need a Wonder such as Stonehenge in order to generate the Great Prophet points.

On higher difficulties, the Oracle can usually sling shot you to Code of Laws and snag you Confucianism. I've been using that route anytime I have marble early on. Since I usually play as the Greeks, that's about the only way for me to snag a religion on Monarch.

I have had success up to Monarch regularly using the Oracle to grab Civil Service when I have a start that produces great commerce/science to do so. Early Gold mines sure are helpful.

There is also another, deeper slingshot, that can be very interesting.


By neglecting to discover Masonry, it is possible to use GP Prophet to discover Civil Service after researching Code of Laws. Then a research path beelining to Music (but not actually discovering it), switching off to Paper after getting all required techs for Music, then using a great artist to go after Education. Use a 2nd GP to grab Music, then use the free Artist from Music to go after Education, if you have discovered Paper. The end result is that one can grab Liberalism or even Astronomy before 1 AD (on levels up to Prince I have done this successfully). The DEEP part of the slingshot is getting Liberalism early because the first to get it gets another free tech, and if this is used for something wise, it is possible to have Calvary running around shortly after 1 AD.

There is a great thread in the Strategy section on Apolyton that gives all the exact details on this deep slingshot.

Slingshot, in general, is finding a way to jump ahead in the tech race along certain specific lines. It requires neglecting some techs in favor of others.

There are certain situations in which it is very advantageous and there are others where it is not so. A failed attempt can be disasterous, but if one is willing to take the risk, the rewards can be great. A fine illustration of disater can be found in my latest GotM effort in which a failed CS slingshot attempt brought down my empire in 1500 BC and I lost the game completely. Thus is the breaks.

For some reason, I never consider using the Oracle to simple grab COL much of a slingshot since all one need have researched is Alphabet, something that is not too difficult to acheive on level Monarch and lower. On higher levels, Emperor and above, I would agree that grabbing COL could be considered a bit of a slingshot.

There are other slingshots as well: Going for an Early Metal Casting with the Oracle by having teched up Iron Working is one example that seems to be gaining in popularity lately.

The key, though, is to tailor the slingshot to the game conditions that are presented in any given scenario and not just blindly going for the CS slingshot because it is cool.



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Bud: Where there really 88 of them?
Bill: No. They just called themselves the Crazy 88's.
Bud: Why is that?
Bill: I don't know. I guess they thought it sounded cool.

drkodos said:

The key, though, is to tailor the slingshot to the game conditions that are presented in any given scenario and not just blindly going for the CS slingshot because it is cool.

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Exactly. I used to always go for CS, then CoL once I left Noble, from the Oracle. Now I base it on what best suits the game at hand. Part of that is the traits of the leader you're playing with, something I'm sorta obsessed with...

Code of Laws is a very worthwhile pursuit, Oracle-assisted or otherwise, for an Organized civ. It gives you access to cheap courthouses, which are, in my opinion, the biggest advantage to that trait.

China, especially Qin, on the other hand, benefits from a Metal Working or an even riskier Machinery slingshot. Getting Industrious' cheap forges and China's very respectable UU (Cho-Ko-Nu) early is a big benefit.

The most basic slingshot is using Oracle for a really expensive tech early. Civil service, Theocracy, Metal Casting are expensive techs that you can get many dozens of turns early if the right prerequisite techs are developed before the completion of the building.

Why CS?: CS helps alot if you have many farm spots that could use that +1 food if it needs to be irrigated (Wheat, Rice, Corn, etc.), and also have a need for caste system (lots of food required for those unlimited specialists), AND gets you a good distance towards Macemen (CS and Machinery, and iron resource).

Why Theocracy?: Theocracy can give a leader that didn't start with mysticism a chance to pick up some religious centers without needing to conquer civs that picked up the early three (Buddhism, Hunduism, Judaism). (Let's say you started on continents and none of your neighbors picked up an early religion... Get some for yourself before it's too late! You don't want to have to wait until Astronomy to have a chance at the benefits of a religion.) Just research to Code of Laws on your own (beeline to get Confucianism), and Oracle slingshot to Theocracy to pick up Christianity. Having two religions goes a long way toward controlling a non-religious continent.

Why metalcasting?: Slingshot to metalcasting to build Forge, work Engineer specialist, pop great engineer, build Pyramids with Great Engineer! Get even more early engineers to pop wonders or move up the engineer tech tree! Works very well with philosophical trait (douple GP points).

More slingshots use the free techs from Great People that pop up to really push deeper into the tech tree.

I have never tried the Deeper Liberalism slingshot.

I liked the CS slingshot playing as Tokugawa on Archipelago, Monarch level.

drkodos said:

By neglecting to discover Masonry, it is possible to use GP Prophet to discover Civil Service after researching Code of Laws. Then a research path beelining to Music (but not actually discovering it), switching off to Paper after getting all required techs for Music, then using a great artist to go after Education. Use a 2nd GP to grab Music, then use the free Artist from Music to go after Education, if you have discovered Paper. The end result is that one can grab Liberalism or even Astronomy before 1 AD (on levels up to Prince I have done this successfully). The DEEP part of the slingshot is getting Liberalism early because the first to get it gets another free tech, and if this is used for something wise, it is possible to have Calvary running around shortly after 1 AD.

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My my. Playing Russia, Cavalry=Cossacks. What a thought. Cossacks plundering the world in the first centruy AD. That I've never seen. It would be good to see though.

Using this though, you'd have to neglect anything that required a quarry - marble and stone. If you don't have it anyway, then fine, but this is not something I'd do if I had easy access to marble or stone. I guess it boils down to playing your game as it comes and not blindly going for a particular slingshot - as has been said a couple of times already in this thread.

drkodos said:

There is also another, deeper slingshot, that can be very interesting.

By neglecting to discover Masonry, it is possible to use GP Prophet to discover Civil Service after researching Code of Laws. Then a research path beelining to Music (but not actually discovering it), switching off to Paper after getting all required techs for Music, then using a great artist to go after Education. Use a 2nd GP to grab Music, then use the free Artist from Music to go after Education, if you have discovered Paper. The end result is that one can grab Liberalism or even Astronomy before 1 AD (on levels up to Prince I have done this successfully). The DEEP part of the slingshot is getting Liberalism early because the first to get it gets another free tech, and if this is used for something wise, it is possible to have Calvary running around shortly after 1 AD.

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Thanks Drkodos for your very informative view of the pros and cons of the CS slingshot. I generally like doing the CS slingshot using the Oracle for Code of Laws and using GP for Civil Service or the longer route of using GP for Theology and then Civil Service if I "need" masonry or have picked up Masonry from a tribal village . Previously even if I had stone, marble I would subscribe to the first method religiously which was a bit of an inflexible strategy.

Until recently I didn't realise there were two methods to pop Civil Service with great prophets. If you have to delay Masonry to wait for the great prophet to generate you risk Wonders like Pyramids or might have to delay military technologies like Construction. For non industrious or non Phi leaders this might take a while. I find with the CS slingshots timing of the great prophet is important.

Going straight to Civil Service with the Oracle is rare unless v AI. Most Strategies v AI should be disregard against people. Either you got lucky with some tribal villages, or got bronze or horse in the Capital city. So you’re not spending time with techs like Iron Working so you can concentrate on Writing and Code of Laws early on while doing Oracle or taking a large risk. This all depends on the map of course with the risk you’re taking. I.e. on an island map with high seas you’re not going to have people knocking on your front door for a while excluding barbs.

Now the CS slingshots from all above seem to be very dependent on getting the Oracle. This is a risk in itself if you’re depending on this strategy. If you don’t get it then what? Life of misery in the "Dark Ages"!

One solution is to get a early religion and build a temple and use a priest. This can be a slow process especially if not phi leader and delaying technologies like Masonry might start to bite.

Don’t get a early religion then what? Crap! Is it time to pull the plug on this strategy and put the feet up and get comfortable in the Dark ages?

Well thankfully that’s why I like the new warlord leader Ramses II gotta love those Obelisks and 2 priests they generate. If you happen to snag an early religion can have 3 priests. That’s a great prophet in 8-23 turns with 1-3 priests. I.e. (67/(3*number of priests )) about the same as a phi leader with a religion and priest ie 12 turns.(67/(3*2))with 2 priests used. Excuse any math errors think these are close if not correct and don’t include any other Wonder benefits you might have.

The last resort learning COL to generate GP.

I think I would then manually learn Code of Laws later on and use the first GP to pop Theology and the 2nd to help/complete with Civil Service. Note this method you need to delay/avoid Monarchy in the meanwhile. I find Monarchy not necessary early on if controlling population with GP's until I either hook up the luxury resources or have managed to get Pyramids if possible.

If there any suggestions on that would be nice. I'm not familiar with having to manually learn COL lol.

With this method 2 GP's might be required to get to Civil Service which is postponed to at least (137/3*number of priests) for the 2nd GP plus the time to research Masonry, Monotheism and Code of Laws. There could also be other delays from removing priest specialists off while building units or buildings/wonders if required urgently. I guess we are talking approximately a 20-30 turn delay at least for Civil Service. This also has compound effects. This sometimes can’t be helped as pointed for stategic or above reasons.

One tactic I've used with Ramses II is to build an early Obelisk and pump up the growth with early farms and whip out the great prophet for code of laws and slingshot to Civil Service with the Oracle that way.

The disadvantage of using GP to pop COL first is that you need Writing, Meditation and Polytheism. Usually I'll have say Mediation and Writing done easily and might have to delay Oracle to get Polytheism done also while waiting for GP. I don’t like having to delay Oracle too risky. Also having to do the extra religion which might be already taken so no benefit could be better spent doing a more important technology at the time.

Note: Yes you could use Oracle to get COL then use GP for the CS slingshot. The reason for trying the other way about is in Multi player team games the great prophet only covers about 1/2 the cost or Civil Service. Usually I aim to get at least 1/2 cost civil in MP which cuts about 10 turns of research and makes it a viable early technology.

In summary having two methods gives flexibility for the situation. I.e. you have stone maybe or picked up Masonry from a village. Maybe having Theology could be important early on in a scenario i.e. having early units with more promotions early on might be required v aggressive neighbours and/or to snag a religion if you don’t already have one.

I really couldn’t imagine having to manually have to learn Civil Service early on. If I have to do this its going to be a long hard haul out of "Dark Ages".

I'm a bit confused about "deeper slingshot" for Education using Artists. Usually my preferred initial great person generation goes like great prophet, great prophet, great scientist, and great scientist. I rarely aim to generate artists and find them useless unless I need a quick boarder push which can be done by bee lining to Music of course.

First one is for the CS slingshot The 2nd one usually also a great prophet which I tend to add back to the city for the quick production boost if I want say pyramids as I've delayed Masonry and need to catch up. I don’t see the benefit I’m completing the religious shrine early on if I have only 2-3 cities at this stage. I.e 5 gold and 2 hammers v 2-3 gold in the short term. Plus it cuts at least 3 turns off Pyramids for example. The first scientist builds The Academy in the capital which is about the time I've learnt Literature and start building Great library. Second scientist contributes towards Education. Note to do this need to delay/avoid Machinery until paper is completed and Great Scientist is generated. Otherwise I think the technology Printing Press is available. I think also the Artist can contribute towards the Printing Press later not 100% sure on that.

After this maybe great prophets for the shrine/s I might have. By now I've got 5-8 cities which is about what I like to manage comfortable until I get banks.


Any suggestions or comments to enlighten me would be appreciated.

Cheers:crazyeye

drkodos said:

By neglecting to discover Masonry, it is possible to use GP Prophet to discover Civil Service after researching Code of Laws. Then a research path beelining to Music (but not actually discovering it), switching off to Paper after getting all required techs for Music, then using a great artist to go after Education. Use a 2nd GP to grab Music, then use the free Artist from Music to go after Education, if you have discovered Paper. The end result is that one can grab Liberalism or even Astronomy before 1 AD (on levels up to Prince I have done this successfully). The DEEP part of the slingshot is getting Liberalism early because the first to get it gets another free tech, and if this is used for something wise, it is possible to have Calvary running around shortly after 1 AD.

Click to expand...

Interesting. Have to try that one out.