The Star, the Crescent, and the Cross (not the scenario)

Cheezy the Wiz

Cheezy the Wiz

Socialist In A Hurry
Joined
Jul 18, 2005
Messages
25,238
Location
Freedonia
We threadjacked Persianboy's "Ask an Iranian" thread, so I making a thread for our discussions to be more legit.
For those of you who don't peruse said thread, I'll bring you up to speed.

Cheezy the Wiz said:
I have a question Persian Boy:

Why is it that Sunni and Shiite Muslims hate each other so? From what I understand, the two 'denominations,' for lack of a better word, stem from a disagreement between who would be the next Caliph, and the Sunnis followed one guy and the Shiites another.
So, given the pettyness of such a diasgreement, why is it that the two cannot get along nowadays, it having been so long since said diagreement took place? For example, Catholic and Protestant Christians, when Protestantism was young and first broke from the Catholic Church, they did not get along at all. However, as years turned to decades, and then to centuries, the two now live side-by-side, and think nothing of it. I am Episcopal, a Protestant denomination, and I have very close friends, even family members, who are Catholic, but also who are Baptist, Lutheran, and some who do not believe at all. Yet, despite these theological differences, we still love each other just the same.
Click to expand...

PersianBoy said:
in western view yes all was happened is only a disagreemint about after Prophet who was the next Clipha
but in Shi'a view, only Imams can be leader of muslims and Abobakr Sunni's first Clipha token leadership without permission of God.
through the history Sunnis annoy Shi'a because they are majority and Shi'a are miniority
In Islamic rule there is a rule that anybody convet from Islam to other religions, will punished by death
Sunnis through history used this rule and killed every Shi'a, can found by this reason that Shi'a worship Ali, the first Imam (leader) of Shi'a but this is false and Shi'a believe that he was the true leader after Muhammad
so Shi'a hating Sunnis because for centuries they killed every Shi'a they found and Sunnis hate Shi'a because they think they caused Islamic Calipha lose its strongness and this bring defeats for Islam

diffrence with christian denominations you said is that after religios war of Protestan and Catholic war (I think continued for 100 year) denominations began to talk with each other but not in islam
many Sunni's even today think that Shi'a worship Ali or don't believe in Prophet that as I said is false
but these denominations have not this oppurtunity to talk with each other so they hate each other
Click to expand...

Cheezy the Wiz said:
You say that converts from Islam to another religion are punished by death? How about if I (a Christian) were to move to Iran? How would I be accepted? How would the general populace of the town feel? Is there any sort of law against other religions?
It makes me wonder, since it seems that the big issue with Islam is other people not worshipping Allah, then why do Christians and Jews and Muslims fight? Allow me to explain.
Both Christianity and Islam draw from the Hebrew Bible, do they not? One could even say that they are both "reformed" versions of Judaism (I know that is oversimplification, but I think you get the drift). Also, the way I understand it, "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for "God," so in context in Arabic, thy refer to Allah as simply "God," in the same way that Christians do their God.
Back to my original point: if we all worship the God from the Hebrew Bible (the Christian Old Testament is the same thing, and I understand that the history of the world and such in Islam comes from the Hebrew Bible), then, even though we have different practices and beliefs concerning particular aspects of worshipping Him, we all worship the same God! So Christians and Jews are not necesarrily "no-believers," just non-practicers of Islam. We still worship the same God that you do.
Click to expand...

Leatherneck said:
I've read all three books and I've been asking that same question for years. I'm oversimplifing here too ... The Torah basiclly the Old Teastiment, the Bible the old and new Testiment, the Koran the old, new and the new-new Testiment. Many people that are in one book are in the other. It's like software, Jewish is G_d V1.0 (Note Jews are not allowed to write the name of God I was told once so it's G_d) Christianity is God V2.0
and Islam is God V3.0 ... if this is the case it seems almost as silly as fighting over which version of Windows is best ... that is unless you have re-noused Windows.
Click to expand...

Sidhe said:
In addition Jesus is mentioned over 300 times in the Koran. He is a prophet as are 25 others


Quote:
In Sura 5:50-51 (46-47) Allah says, "And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was revealed before him and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah -- a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off evil. Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed, such are evil-livers."

In Sura 4:162 (164) Mohammed wrote that "Allah spake directly unto Moses." Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible.

In Sura 3:40(45) it is written, "O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word form Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah)."

Jesus says in the Koran to "Keep your duty to Allah, and obey me, for Allah is my Lord and your Lord." (Surah 3:50-51 (44)).

In Surah 19:31(30), Jesus says, "I am the slave of Allah! He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a prophet."

Qur'an 4:163-165
163 Lo! We inspire thee (Muhammad) as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as we imparted unto David the Psalms;
164 And messengers We have mentioned unto thee before and messengers We have not mentioned unto thee; and Allah spake directly unto Moses;
165 Messengers of good cheer and off warning, in order that mankind might have no argument against Allah after the messengers. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.


Qur'an 6:84-86
84 And We bestowed upon him Isaac and Jacob; each of them We guided; and Noah did We guide aforetime; and of his seed (We guided) David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the good.
85 And Zachariah and John and Jesus and Elias. Each one (of them) was of the righteous.
86 And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot. Each one of them did We prefer above (Our) creatures,


Qur'an 21:85-88
85 And (mention) Ishmael, and Idris (Enoch), and Dhul-Kifl (Ezekiel). All were of the steadfast.
86 And We brought them in unto Our mercy. Lo! they are among the righteous.
87 And (mention) Dhun Nun (Jonah), when he went off in anger and deemed that We had no power over him, but he cried out in the darkness, saying: There is no God save Thee. Be Thou glorified! I have been a wrong-doer.
88 Then We heard his prayer and saved him from the anguish. Thus We save believers.


Qur'an 7:73
And to (the tribe of) Thamud (We sent) their brother Salih. He said: O my people! Serve Allah. Ye have no other God save Him. A wonder from your Lord hath come unto you. Lo! this is the camel of Allah, a token unto you; so let her feed in Allah's earth, and touch her not with hurt lest painful torment seize you.


Qur'an 26:123-125
123 (The tribe of) Aad denied the messengers (of Allah),
124 When their brother Hud said unto them: Will ye not ward off (evil)?
125 Lo! I am a faithful messenger unto you,
Click to expand...



There are many more passages that mention Jesus and the prophets of the Jews some attributed to Muhammed himself. A quick internet search will reveal thousands of pages about the Quran and Jesus and the birth of all they are called the Abrahamic religions. Because Isaac and Ishmael(sons of Abraham or Abrahim in the Koran) Are the founders, Isaac of the twelve tribes of Israel and Ishmael a half brother of Isaac with an Arab wife the originator of the Arabs who founded Islam.
Click to expand...

That is our discussion chronologically, from Persianboy's thread.

And there is that we will resume. Please keep this discussion friendly, folks. I know religion is a touchy topic, so keep the religion-bashing to yourself, and most of all keep an open mind.
 
Thanks there Cheezy your a Wiz at correcting our evil doings of threadjacking. :goodjob:

Now is Allah the same "big guy" aka GOD that the Christians and Jew believe in? I read a few things about him/her being the MOON GOD ... not going to bore you with a bunch of links you can google it and find tons of info, granted mostly seems to be Christian sites so they might have an agenda ... any thought from the current think tank?
Wiki has a little on it under Arabian mythology, but some have said and it could be true or false the Mohammad's God was the Moon God.
 
Leatherneck said:
Thanks there Cheezy your a Wiz at correcting our evil doings of threadjacking. :goodjob:

Now is Allah the same "big guy" aka GOD that the Christians and Jew believe in? I read a few things about him/her being the MOON GOD ... not going to bore you with a bunch of links you can google it and find tons of info, granted mostly seems to be Christian sites so they might have an agenda ... any thought from the current think tank?
Wiki has a little on it under Arabian mythology, but some have said and it could be true or false the Mohammad's God was the Moon God.
Click to expand...

iirc, Allah means "the god" in Arabic, and there was a moon god worshipped at Mecca by that name prior to the rise of Islam.

Islam adopted the name of that god, adopted his home city, and even the Crescent moon. But the Islamic god is the same god as the one which occurs in in Judaism and therefore the same god that occurs in Christianity.

To make an analogy, if I steal Winner's name, house, and avatar, in order to be popular among Winner's supporters, that does not make me the same as Winner.
 
SeleucusNicator said:
iirc, Allah means "the god" in Arabic, and there was a moon god worshipped at Mecca by that name prior to the rise of Islam.

Islam adopted the name of that god, adopted his home city, and even the Crescent moon. But the Islamic god is the same god as the one which occurs in in Judaism and therefore the same god that occurs in Christianity.

To make an analogy, if I steal Winner's name, house, and avatar, in order to be popular among Winner's supporters, that does not make me the same as Winner.
Click to expand...

Pretty much that is what I thought all along, but you have to ask questions to know for sure. I know a little about Islam, but by no mean have I had time to research it's beginings and over all idealogies. On a good day you might fill a thimble with my welth of Islamic knowledge.
 
To elaborate on the relation of Allah and the moon god--the title "al-ilah" (the god) was used as the moon god which the word "Allah" derived from. There were something like 360 gods worshiped by various pre-Islamic pagan Arabs but the pagan "Allah" was the high god in the pantheon of dieties.

The Kabah in Mecca, which we all know is the direction Muslims face when they pray, was considered the house of the moon god.

What I found interesting in connection of the Muslim Allah and the moon god is that the pagan allah (moon god) had three daughters. The Quran at one point tells belivers to worship these daughters; Surah 53.19-20. But those verses had been aborgated out of the present Quran, deemed heretical and are known as the "Satanic Verses".

SeleucusNicator said:
To make an analogy, if I steal Winner's name, house, and avatar, in order to be popular among Winner's supporters, that does not make me the same as Winner.
Click to expand...

I agree, that is an accurate analogy.

Leatherneck said:
On a good day you might fill a thimble with my welth of Islamic knowledge.
Click to expand...

Don't fret, that is more than most people I know.:)
 
thank you cheezy for starting this thread
number of questions about Islam is grow in Iranian thread and I want to offer some one to start a thread for religions
now a Sunni muslims needed here to answer questions about Sunni Islam
I try to answer questions about Shi'a muslims and Islam
 
for moon God I disagree with you
in Shi'a there is no sign of moon in mousqes and other religious places
Sunnis use moon sign and I think tradition have not historic and after Ottmans began
Shi'a holy leaders said that sign of no natural things can use in holy places here is some pics of holy olaces in Islam
http://www.imamreza.net/eng/ you can find some pics in gallery of this site
be sure that if Shi'a can remove that signs in other countries will do.
 
Just to be clear on Christ in Islam - as far as I can tell, Muslims deny that Jesus was ever crucified, arguing that God would not allow one of His prophets to be killed in such a disgraceful way. Also, they do believe that He was born of a virgin, but do not believe that He is also God, as part of the Trinity, and this would violate their concept of tawhid.

There are similarities between Christianity and Islam, (Especially when compared to other religions, such as Buddhism or Hinduism) but they are not as great as many people seem to think. The two views of the Nature of God and Christ are very different.
 
it was said to us that Abraham have 2 son
Ishmael and Issac
Ishmael has fund macca and recontruct Kabaa with help of his father and also said that Allah was the name of god that Ishmael pray and teach others to pray and sure it was from Abraham's teaching but throgh time Arab tribes forgot teaching of Ishmael and began worship idols
they believe only true god is Allah but think that idols have power on events and can bring for them good happens

also I read in my religious text that Abraham's uncle was a idol maker and one they Abraham don't obey to worship idols that himself made and try to searching new God so worship stars but moon came to sky and he realize that moon have more light so worship moon and next day sun rise and Abraham began to worship Sun because it have more light and power
I tell this story that show that in many nations moon has worship
I see that links about that cartoons and see that ancient idol but it don't say any thing
I can some religions in India that thier holy sign is cross so are christian have some rote in India or Jews simbol is David's Star means that jews god is star God
IMO this is not rational and even If I accept relation between moon god and Allah remember that signs in that idol is like this shape ^ but for Summi Muslims is in this shape )
for ramadan and calander I must say that it is a calender only and if you believe that by using a moon calender means worshiping moon god so because now calender of many contries in world including my country is according sun so these poeples worship sun god
 
About Pual, yes he proclamied Roman Citizenship toward the end of Acts in the 20s. Roman was multi-ethnic; by ethnicity he was Hebrew.
 
Christians worship Jesus as God, the Muslims and Jews do not. It isn't like Islam is an upgraded version of Christianity just because a few scriptures are the same. It is an entirely different religion.
 
puglover said:
Christians worship Jesus as God, the Muslims and Jews do not. It isn't like Islam is an upgraded version of Christianity just because a few scriptures are the same. It is an entirely different religion.
Click to expand...
If you are referring to my version numbers I wasn't implying that it was an upgrade just a different version, meaning they all three come from the same roots and as you go from one regilion to the other they have some of the same people, all of them have folks from the old testament, Christianity and Islam have them from the old and new, an only Islam has some not mentioned in the other two. As each was founded it different points in history, Judism, Christianity and Islam in that order.
 
puglover said:
Christians worship Jesus as God, the Muslims and Jews do not. It isn't like Islam is an upgraded version of Christianity just because a few scriptures are the same. It is an entirely different religion.
Click to expand...
I agree.

Judaism has the Old Testiments. Mainly the Torah and do not reconise Jesus as their moshiach.

Islam believes that both the Old Testiments and the New Testiments have been corrupted when people wrote down the word of God, but they believe the Quran is the corrupt free word of God. Muslims believe that Jesus is not God but an important prophet in Islam.

Christianity has both the Old and New Testiments and believe that Jesus is God since he is the God incarnate and was concived by the holy spirit.
 
Leatherneck said:
If you are referring to my version numbers I wasn't implying that it was an upgrade just a different version, meaning they all three come from the same roots and as you go from one regilion to the other they have some of the same people, all of them have folks from the old testament, Christianity and Islam have them from the old and new, an only Islam has some not mentioned in the other two. As each was founded it different points in history, Judism, Christianity and Islam in that order.
Click to expand...

Just because they come from the same root doesn't make them compatible.
 
puglover said:
Just because they come from the same root doesn't make them compatible.
Click to expand...


Clearly not compatible, but history has shown very combatible. (Not a word, but you get the idea.)
 
Leatherneck said:
Clearly not compatible, but history has shown very combatible. (Not a word, but you get the idea.)
Click to expand...


What do you mean by that? just curious.
 
Leatherneck said:
Clearly not compatible, but history has shown very combatible. (Not a word, but you get the idea.)
Click to expand...
Do Jews, I am talking your basic Orthodoxy Judaism here, believe that Jesus is their moshiach? A rabbi, A Jewish priest, and even a Jewish person will tell you that Jesus is not their Messiah (More exactly moshiach).

Do Muslims believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ? No they reconise Jesus as an important prophet of Islam. To Muslims, the thought of the divinity of Jesus is heretical within Islam.
 
Mott1 said:
What do you mean by that? just curious.
Click to expand...

He's saying correctly that the Abrahamic religions have a great capacity for fighting it out with each other.
 
CivGeneral said:
Do Jews, I am talking your basic Orthodoxy Judaism here, believe that Jesus is their moshiach? A rabbi, A Jewish priest, and even a Jewish person will tell you that Jesus is not their Messiah (More exactly moshiach).

Do Muslims believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ? No they reconise Jesus as an important prophet of Islam. To Muslims, the thought of the divinity of Jesus is heretical within Islam.
Click to expand...

At no point have I said they believe the same thing. That would be insane to say and this thread would be pointless.
They all spring from Abraham (Abrahim) and have gone they own way.

puglover said:
He's saying correctly that the Abrahamic religions have a great capacity for fighting it out with each other.
Click to expand...

Correct.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

amadeus
Political polling and the subconscious
2
Replies
31
Views
1K
amadeus
amadeus
Kyriakos
An interesting story (religious, but I post it due to the unexpected motif)
2
Replies
37
Views
1K
Kyriakos
Kyriakos
GoodEnoughForMe
Should the US Invade Greenland (Denmark) & Panama
24 25 26
Replies
515
Views
21K
Crezth
Crezth
Klaus Hergersheimer
Drugs and the US market
4 5 6
Replies
112
Views
5K
Hygro
Hygro
GoodEnoughForMe
Do you bike in the city?
2
Replies
32
Views
2K
bene_legionary
bene_legionary
Back
Top Bottom