HOW to run a specialist economy

I've read a lot of articles & threads, all of which try to convince me to play some games using specialists (rather than cottage spamming). Endless detail of comparison on beakers, wealth, etc. That's great, but to be honest all you had to say was "it's different and fun."

My question is HOW to go about it? I looked around, and didn't find a single thread to tell me HOW.

So, I've gleaned the basics, plus some tips. I'll post them here. Please critique, and add any others!

MANDATORY
-- Beeline Masonry to get Pyramids. Or, beeline Bronze Working first, then Masonry, to chop Pyramids plus have the capability to build Axes earlier. Run Representation. (If you get beat to Pyramids, then punt and switch to a cottage economy.)
-- After that, beeline to get Great Library in super science city (see below). (If you get beat to Great Library, then punt and switch to a cottage economy.)
-- DON'T use Slavery.
-- DON'T waste time on buildings that aren't immediately relevant. e.g., Capitol is specializing in wealth so don't build library or forge there. Ever.
-- Run science slider as normal, until specialists start to kick in. Then, back it down, slowly over time, until it is 0%.
-- If happiness is a problem, move culture slider up. Repeat as needed.
-- Run Caste System and Mercantilism when you get them.

CAPITOL (city specialization = wealth)
-- 1-2 farms to get pop up faster, then cottages. Force merchant specialists when able.
-- Run Bureaucracy until you have all Towns, then switch to Free Speech.
-- Build markets, banks, wall street.
-- great merchants join this city (rather than being used for tech, money, or golden age).

CITIES W/EARLY ACCESS TO WATER (city specialization = science)
-- all farms. Force science specialists when able.
-- Pick one city to be your super science city, whichever one has the most food. Great Library is essential here! Build library, university, oxford, etc.
-- Great scientists join here.

CITIES W/O WATER (city specialization = production, military)
-- farms as much as possible, then mines. Build barracks, stables, etc. Military academy, heroic epic, etc.

CITIES W/O WATER (city specialization = production, wonders, GPP)
-- Build all your wonders in these cities, except as noted above.
-- after you can spread irrigation, you can change these cities to science cities

Wodan

Thank you for this guide, though you forgot to mention that you should also build some cities with cottages (0% tech rate means wealth).

SS-18 ICBM said:

Thank you for this guide, though you forgot to mention that you should also build some cities with cottages (0% tech rate means wealth).

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The only city you build cottages in is your Capitol. Your capitol provides 100% of your wealth, is the idea.

Wodan

One thing I did omit is the mechanics of managing your specialists.

Turn on auto management. Click the Optimize Food button on all cities.

Also, depending on city specialization, click either the Optimize Beakers button, Optimize Wealth button (your capitol only), or the Optimize Production button. No other buttons should ever be selected.

You have to check your cities every few turns. Easy enough to do this from the city management screen, and visually compare the happiness and unhappiness columns, and the healthiness and unhealthiness columns.

When any city is on the verge of having a citizen become either unhappy or unhealthy (that is, when happiness = unhappiness or when unhealty = unhealthy), you manually force a specialist of the appropriate type for that city, by clicking on the "+" symbol above that specialist type on the city screen. If you have already maxed out that specialist type (e.g., you only can have 3 science specialists) then consider going for a tech or building a building that will allow more of that specialist. e.g., Library allows you to have more science specialists in a city. In the meantime, you can do a different kind of specialist (e.g., a Priest) which is almost as good.

This way, your cities will NEVER be unhealthy or unhappy.

Whenever you get things that add happiness or health to your empire, such as a new resource, a new building option, or added food production (Civil Service), then you need to go back through all your cities and see if you can turn off a specialist (in order to work a food tile and grow the city bigger). You'll turn that specialist back on soon enough.

Wodan

Wodan said:

-- DON'T use Slavery.

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Why not? If anything, I would think slavery would be even more applicable in this setup, since all of the farms would allow you to quickly regrow the lost population. I look at slavery as being independent of the type of economy you choose to run. Instead, it should be evaluated based upon the number of hammers per turn that a whipped citizen will give you versus the number you would achieve by working that citizen (on a mined hill for example).

Wodan said:

-- DON'T waste time on buildings that aren't immediately relevant. e.g., Capitol is specializing in wealth so don't build library or forge there. Ever.

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Again, this has nothing to do with your type of economy. You should never build anything that is not relevant or necessary to achieve your goal. "Immediately relevant" is especially important in the early game.

Wodan said:

-- If you have a LOT of one resource, you may consider building markets or grocers in all your cities, depending on what resource it is (to get max happiness or health from it).

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"A LOT of one resource"? I don't see the significance. Build grocers and markets for health and happiness as they are needed, in those cities that need them. The quantity of a single resource that you have is not relevant. The excess should be traded away.

Wodan said:

-- Run Bureaucracy until you have all Towns, then switch to Free Speech.

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Assuming culture is not the reason for switching to Free Speech, this switch should never be automatic. You need to evaluate the +50% commerce of Bureaucracy versus the extra commerce from towns. Use whichever civic gives you the best results.



Edit: I also don't think losing out on the Pyramids or Great Library is a reason to punt. Yes, they are nice to have, regardless of your economy. But, if your game strategy centers around getting a wonder, it is probably time to reevaluate your strategy. Just my 2c, of course.

First off, I'm hardly an expert on this. I was hoping for the experts to come out of the woodwork. Regardless, I have read a lot about it, so I'll fill in whatever blanks I can.

Conroe said:

Why not? If anything, I would think slavery would be even more applicable in this setup, since all of the farms would allow you to quickly regrow the lost population.

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Before Code of Laws, it might be okay. After CoL, any whipping is removing a specialist. Since 100% of your wealth and research comes from your specialists, this would be a Bad Thing.

Oh, to be sure, this whipping would be only 1 city, and thus, would only remove a couple of specialists. And, if you could discipline yourself to whipping only when you turned 1 citizen unhappy/unhealthy, and whipping only for that 1 citizen (instead of 2 or 3), then that, too, would minimize the harm to your empire.

The bigger harm is that you can't run Caste System and Slavery at the same time.

Back to before CoL... you can't run Caste System already, so your specialists are limited. Thus, it will be more frequent that you will have "extra" population. So, before CoL, Slavery would cause less harm to a specialist economy.

Conroe said:

Again, this has nothing to do with your type of economy. You should never build anything that is not relevant or necessary to achieve your goal. "Immediately relevant" is especially important in the early game.

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Agreed. I made special note of it because it is counter-intuitive to NOT build, for example, a library in your capitol. In a cottage economy you definitely WOULD build it. That's because a cottage economy benefits both science and wealth.

For a specialist economy, however, that is not true. You can look right on the city screen and see the river running through your farms, thus you can see the commerce income. However, with the Tech slider on 0% research, this commerce is becoming 100% wealth. Thus, a library would be totally useless.

Conroe said:

"A LOT of one resource"? I don't see the significance. Build grocers and markets for health and happiness as they are needed, in those cities that need them. The quantity of a single resource that you have is not relevant. The excess should be traded away.

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You're right. I'll edit that out of my post.

Wodan

Conroe said:

I also don't think losing out on the Pyramids or Great Library is a reason to punt. Yes, they are nice to have, regardless of your economy. But, if your game strategy centers around getting a wonder, it is probably time to reevaluate your strategy. Just my 2c, of course.

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In several places I've read comments from people who say that the benefits of those two wonders make this strategy work really well, and that not having them makes it mediocre.

Since you will know whether you get them early in the game, in fact, early enough that you can switch to another strategy without any significant loss, why not switch? That's like planning an Axe rush, oops, no copper. No big deal--Sword rush, or give up and build infrastructure and do a Mace rush later.

(In fact, even if you started out with the intention to cottage spam, it's arguable to build 2-3 farms in all your cities before you start building cottages, because this kick-starts your population.)

Wodan

In my last couple of games, I went with a full-blown specialist economy. Especially in the hands of a philosophical leader, it can be extremely powerful. By the time I was building universities, I realized that I had seven academies in cities I controlled. Even running science at 0%, I was researching at a blistering pace. But the part I love most about specialist economy is getting 5 happy faces for running 20% culture. Since most of your gold and beakers are coming from specialists, you lose significantly, significantly less in using the culture meter than a cottage economy does.

The part that I hate about specialist economy is that it requires insane micromanagement. Your city governors might assign all the population to scientists and have city produce only 8 hammers a turn. Or it might go the other way around and make 40 hammers a turn and no beakers. And the city governors seem to never assign merchant specialists (I didn't have any one specialized gold city, I was hoping each city would find a medium between gold, production, and research), so if you want some gold income from your specialists, you have to manage that yourself too.

Thanks for the comments, DB.

DigitalBoy said:

The part that I hate about specialist economy is that it requires insane micromanagement. Your city governors might assign all the population to scientists and have city produce only 8 hammers a turn. Or it might go the other way around and make 40 hammers a turn and no beakers. And the city governors seem to never assign merchant specialists (I didn't have any one specialized gold city, I was hoping each city would find a medium between gold, production, and research), so if you want some gold income from your specialists, you have to manage that yourself too.

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If you use your capitol, and ONLY your capitol, to generate commerce, then you simply set it to force merchant specialists. That avoids one problem.

The other maybe someone else can comment about.

Wodan

BTW, about the importance of Pyramids and Great Library, I would say that the Pyramids are critical and that the Great Library is optional. Specialist economy is very heavily dependent on Representation, as it roughly doubles the productivity of specialists. Representation is the only way that specialists can ever compete with cottages as far as generating beakers and gold is concerned, and building the Pyramids is the only way to get Representation early enough to set up a dedicated specialist economy from the get-go. I suppose you could convert to a specialist economy after you got Constitution, but I can't bring myself to tear down a 7 GPT town to replace it with a farm. What I usually do if I miss the Pyramids is to use specialist economies in new towns that I obtain after Constitution and just keep a "normal" cottage economy in my old towns.

If you build cottages only around the capital, then it does not make sense to switch from Bureaucracy to Free Speech.

You'll be making more $$$ from +50% to all commerce, than +2 C to towns.

Even if you're not Financial, a town will give you 5-6 commerce after Printing Press. +50% is equivalent to +2.5-3 Commerce, and it affects not only the towns, but 8C from Palace, trade routes, etc.

The Free Speech beats Bureaucracy when you have more towns around other cities than around the capital.

Wodan said:

First off, I'm hardly an expert on this. I was hoping for the experts to come out of the woodwork. Regardless, I have read a lot about it, so I'll fill in whatever blanks I can.

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I'm no expert, either. I'm definitely a rank amateur. But, I have been playing with this strategy a lot over the last several months. And maybe I'm reading too much between the lines (I apologize if I am) of your article, but it seems that you are missing the point about the true benefits of this strategy.

This strategy is about getting great people and maximizing the benefit from them. Namely, using the lightbulb to acquire techs. A couple of months ago, I was loathe to lightbulb a tech. Now, I will always stop and evaluate what tech that GP will research for me. Not only the buildings and units that tech opens up, but what I can potentially trade it for. Basically, I look at each GP to determine how best to use it to further my goals for that game. For example, building an Academy with the first Great Scientist is not a no-brainer decision. Sometimes it is better to use that first one to lightbulb Philosophy.

I guess I just don't see the benefit of laying down a set of hard rules into stone. I think you are missing a lot of potential with rules that state always do this, or never do that. Each decision should be evaluated, based on the current situation.

Never put a Library in your capital? Well, building a Library in your capital allows you to hire 2 Scientist to pop a GS to build an Academy -- maybe even before you have learned Code of Laws. Never use the whip? That specialist city with all of those farms is probably getting 1 hammer per turn. That's 90 turns for a Library! Of course you can fire a couple of specialist to work some mines -- but which is more efficient, the mines or the whip? The answer is not the same for every city or every game.

To me, a specialist economy is about building farms before cottages. Using the excess population to run the specialists to acquire the Great People. That is the theory anyway. The only rule is to stay focused on your goal for the game. It's rather vague, I know and I apologize; but there are just too many variables in a game to say never use slavery or always switch to Free Speech.

Conroe said:

To me, a specialist economy is about building farms before cottages. Using the excess population to run the specialists to acquire the Great People. That is the theory anyway.

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Very wise words. Far too many people imagine that the specialist economy is all about building the Pyramids and running Representation and it need not be at all.

Agreed, Conroe. Never is a strong word.

On the other hand, until one really tries to exploit a strategy, one won't know where it's OKAY to deviate, and where it's not.

To me, instructions like I tried to post (which, honestly, I did as much for me, to get my own thoughts together, as for anybody else -- that said, anyone else who can benefit, great) are simply to get going with a new strategy. Try it at its purest. See how strong it really is, if I don't deviate. See where it's weak, so that I know where and how I can or should deviate on future games.

It's not like I set out to write the Bible on specialist economies. I simply wanted to try to jot down some rules for people who wanted to try it out.

Your advice is great, since you've been playing this a lot. But, it has the same problem with all the other advice I've been reading. Namely: it lacks direction. How am I to try out a new strategy if all anyone tells me is every game is different and everything you do depends on the current situation?

Wodan

Conroe said:

...you are missing the point about the true benefits of this strategy. This strategy is about getting great people and maximizing the benefit from them. Namely, using the lightbulb to acquire techs.

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Is that true?

Do you really get signifigantly more GP by running an empire-wide specialist economy, than by running a cottage economy along with one huge GP farm city? Honestly, I've wondered this.

Even if true, I wonder about this assertion. Is the "true benefit" of an empire-wide specialist economy to get more GP? At least one poster I read asserted (with quite a bit of evidence) that a specialist economy results in significantly faster research than a cottage economy, up until Scientific Method, even after which it's still competitive.

To me, GP benefits are gravy. Whatever you do with them will help. Hard to go wrong. Having a thriving economy, now that I would say is essential. Not a benefit... a need.

... just wondering your thoughts...

Wodan

Wodan said:

Do you really get signifigantly more GP by running an empire-wide specialist economy, than by running a cottage economy along with one huge GP farm city? Honestly, I've wondered this.

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If your goal is to get the most GP that you can, then a single GP farm is the way to go. If your goal is to take over the world as fast as you can, then the answer is who cares. I'm not trying to be flippant, thats just the way I see it.

A specialist economy is more apt to produce Great People sooner. No clue about quantity, just sooner. Before I even get that next GP, I'm already thinking how he could be used. Take a look at this post. It tells you what techs a Great Person will offer and in what order. What techs do you need to achieve your goal? What is the next tech that will be offered? What prerequisites do you need first? Or is it even worth it? I wouldn't burn a GS on Mathematics, but getting Philosophy? That's a definite maybe. And I 100% would burn a Great Prophet to pick up Civil Service. Let me tell you, burning a Great Engineer on Machinery instead of building a wonder is tough to do! Sometimes it is the right thing to do, though.

Wodan said:

But, it has the same problem with all the other advice I've been reading. Namely: it lacks direction. How am I to try out a new strategy if all anyone tells me is every game is different and everything you do depends on the current situation?

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The reason the advice is vague is there are too many variables. What is your goal? Diplomcacy, space ship, domination, etc. What difficulty level are you at? What kind of map? Are barbs causing problems this time? Is Alexander your next door neighbor? And the questions go on and on.

Decide on a goal. Then look at the tech tree and decide where you need to be to achieve that goal. A diplomatic victory requires Mass Media. A spaceship launch requires pretty much everything. Then decide what is the best way to get there from where you are now. With each new tech, each new trade deal, each new Great Person, you should reevaluate your situation and see if there is a better route.

The easiest win is probably conquest on a pageae map. The short answer is to beeline Chemistry. Get there as quick as you can and kill everyone in sight. On the way to Chemistry, take a pit stop at Macemen to get some City Raider promotions. "Acquire" Construction along the way. After you have Chemistry, turn off research to get enough money to upgrade your troops to Grenadiers. Don't waste your time researching techs you don't need. If you have copper and no jungle, you don't need Iron Working!

Wodan said:

Having a thriving economy, now that I would say is essential. Not a benefit... a need.

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My advice is to check the One City Challenge option the next time you play. It will give thriving economy a whole new meaning.

I guess I'm what passes for an expert around here, unless futurehermit posts, so I'll add my 2c. First, check out my long post specifically 3) and some of the comments on that on page 2 eshpeshally post #21. Basically you need to generate your wealth from one or two cities running cottages not merchants. Merchants are just way to inefficient. Build Wall Street in your commerce city and you can get like 500 gold in one city.

Using whipping is not bad as long as you build lots of cottages and don't overuse it. As for the Pyramids, you basically can't run this strategy without it. If you're worried about missing it use a leader who has Industrial.

I would also recomend looking through my post on the specific leaders. Basically I'd use the Russians either Stalin or Peter.

Hope this helps.

1) Piramids are not needed.
2) Main advantage of specialists economy is in production. I produce *3 more shields then cottage based economy.

Monarch no cottages game
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=171597
Emperor no cottagess game
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=175281
Immortal no cottages game
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=178607

If you're going to pop up games to support an argument, it might help if they've actually been played through to completion (and victory would help). The immortal game doesn't even run up to 500 AD (since I've looked at it) and therefore proves nothing. Your posts are also so filled with spelling errors and poor grammar I'm finding the grand strategy difficult to decipher (I don't care the reason for these, I'm just pointing out they make the posts difficult to read).

Spelling and grammar mistakes dont matter to me. Mutineer's posts, games, are VERY informative.