Mountain Tiles

I was wondering if there was a way to allow the working of mountain tiles. I think that especially for the dwarves, that this would add alot more flavor, as typically dwarves dont dwell in the hills but in the mountains. They would have to be improved by units that can move through mountains, like a special worker, but I think this would add some usefullness to the mountains and allow for some interesting possiblilities.

im hoping all the khazad units will be able to move and work and build on mountains, i know there must be some plan for it (since the Dwarven promotion gives double movement in mountains - atm they can't currently get up there though, and mountains need their movement cost increased)

i know that resources, improvements, cities, and roads can all be placed on mountains without bugs via the worldbuilder (roads can even be built already if you give a worker the "enter impassible terrain" ability; cities are tricky however, you have to build the city on a normal tile, then turn that tile into a mountain tile, then wait a turn, and the city will be on the mountain and look proper).

resources on mountains give no yields, but improvements on mountains give the yield that would normally be in addition to the base tile yield.

the problem with mountain cities is how do you attack them? Assume that the dwarves put a huge road in place?

Note I think a neet bonus of dwarven mountain cities would be an ability to seal the city off. attack is impossible even bombardment or spels but food, production, comerce, culture, and great people points goes down to zero.

I was thinking more having the cities themselves on the ground and being able to access resourcess and work tiles that are occupied by mountains

can fireballs and such enter impassible tiles like mountains? if not they should, so attacking mountain cities would be done with magic and rangers likely.

Sureshot said:

can fireballs and such enter impassible tiles like mountains? if not they should, so attacking mountain cities would be done with magic and rangers likely.

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yes, they can get to mountian tiles. Plus (im not totally sure but...) i think you can use tsunami to destroy the tile and the city.

Perhaps having a city founded on a mountain could make the mountain no longer be impassalbe? Might be possible, I don't know, but I like the idea.

About working mountain tiles, I'd like to see mountains give a solid five or so, to make it so that the dwarves eagerly seek them out. On the other hand, we have to be careful of playabilty here, of course, so maybe it would be best to flesh out the other Civs before we give the dwarves such a potentially powerful ability.

Chandrasekhar said:

Perhaps having a city founded on a mountain could make the mountain no longer be impassalbe? Might be possible, I don't know, but I like the idea.

About working mountain tiles, I'd like to see mountains give a solid five or so, to make it so that the dwarves eagerly seek them out. On the other hand, we have to be careful of playabilty here, of course, so maybe it would be best to flesh out the other Civs before we give the dwarves such a potentially powerful ability.

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What about having settlements instead of city.These settelments wouldn't be as good as cities but would be somewhat productive due to the plot that it ocupies.

im thinkin they need full cities, settlements are for those kurioaters!

bombardment would still work against them, collateral damage from fireballs and the like, magic in general, and ranger units would all be able to cause trouble there, so i don't think its ultimately powerful. and dwarves need some extra survivability.

im not sure how easy it is to do though, which is the main problem as i see it. i could do it with some very hacky workarounds, but im hoping theres a better way.

I still think the main city should be on the ground and not on the mountain kind of like an entrance to the mountain so that it could be attacked normally.

I wouldnt mind also if there were roads on a mountain tile that it would now be traversable by normal units. That would make the Idea of having a city on the mountain more plausible. Cause if there is a road it would be possible for most anyone to make it through although a severe penalty for movement might be in order.

I agree that it'd be really cool if the Dwarves could work mountains - a unique and flavorful ability. Something like 3-4 hammers, with possibly more gained on extra techs, would be appropriate. Probably easier to just let them *work* mountains, not build cities on them.

Does the design team wish to comment?

Better if there was a new terrain type: mountains, and keep the peak too.

seems to me that dwarves dont work on mountains, but within them. actually having extra movement on mountains seems similarly inacurate, as they couldnt pass through a mountain unless there was a road that went into and out of the mountain. I believe there is to be a dwarven worker, and perhaps this worker should be the only standard unit to get automatic movement into mountains so that they could build roads and what not. (along with what ever resource bonus/penalty peeks will provide there should be increased build time for improvements)

Im not sure if the mechanics are the same or similar to civ3, but as long as there was a road connecting two tiles, an enemy could follow the road, if it were passable terrain or not. If civ4 is or can be made to act this way, building a city in a mountain would not be impracticle or (completely)imbalanced because there would/should be at least one road into/out of the city, and if a player were foolish enough to pillage that road, workers could be brought in to restore it.

Wherefore should mountains be imporveable? Instead would it not be possible to have a building that added x amount of production from mountain tiles? Could not a building allow the addition of production from those particular tiles? THen workers need not get up there and build anything, there is no need to concern with whether or not units can pass through them. THe citizens would work the tile as it is available, through the construciton of various buildings, each building perhaps providing additional bonus from the particular tile.
-Qes

QES said:

Wherefore should mountains be imporveable? Instead would it not be possible to have a building that added x amount of production from mountain tiles? Could not a building allow the addition of production from those particular tiles? THen workers need not get up there and build anything, there is no need to concern with whether or not units can pass through them. THe citizens would work the tile as it is available, through the construciton of various buildings, each building perhaps providing additional bonus from the particular tile.
-Qes

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I dont really like this Idea. I would much prefer the mountains to be workable. and have the capabilities of having resources in/on them.

Im not sure if the mechanics are the same or similar to civ3, but as long as there was a road connecting two tiles, an enemy could follow the road, if it were passable terrain or not. If civ4 is or can be made to act this way, building a city in a mountain would not be impracticle or (completely)imbalanced because there would/should be at least one road into/out of the city, and if a player were foolish enough to pillage that road, workers could be brought in to restore it.

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This is what I am talking about, but even if it wouldnt work this way just restrict the cities themselves from being on a mountain tile, and that would prevent any further problems with attacking a city.

I have an idea, why not have all mountains to be workable by all races. To work on a mountain square takes twice as long as a normal tile
A mountain gives 2 hammers, with a mine gives 3 A mountain has a greater chance to contain gems, copper, iron, gold & Mithril. If these are mined they produce the normal benifits with an extra 2 production.

Now, here comes the thing, mountain walk is an ability which is unlocked with a tech, which you get one tech past when iron is revieled.
All Dwarven workers start with mountain walk........ No, to much of a benifit, they get it when Forge is avaliable.

Kasdar said:

I dont really like this Idea. I would much prefer the mountains to be workable. and have the capabilities of having resources in/on them.

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I know, but part of the virtue of a specific tile is in its relation to another tile. Deserts and mountains are "bad" tiles. THis makes the other tiles "good". We dont want to eliminate this fundamental dynamic without good cause. Simply making the mountains useful, deprives them of their purpose, same with desert. Now, If we wanted to say that dwarves in particular are less subject to the limitaions of mountains, then we can provide them with alternate means of development to encourage their living in/near mountains. But on the whole, the purpose of a "dead" space is to increase the value of "non-dead" spaces.

-Qes

i like how different civs have different 'deadspaces' myself, like for Lanun, farms are a dead improvement, pointless for them to build.

the reason i like that, is because then different civs value different lands, allowing some peaceful coexistence with optimality.

Sureshot said:

i like how different civs have different 'deadspaces' myself, like for Lanun, farms are a dead improvement, pointless for them to build.

the reason i like that, is because then different civs value different lands, allowing some peaceful coexistence with optimality.

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EXACTLY! Different dead spaces for different civs/races. Really we're talking about races here. Becuase if we had 10 human, 1 dwarven, and 1 elven race (for example) then 10 of the civs should be fighting over similar terrain, whereas perhaps the elves and dwarves would be off somewhere else becuase the basic terrains hold A) less value to them and B) the impassible stuff is more accessable to them.

IMHO the Subterrainian races should stick to the mountains and only war with non-subterraininan races out of principle instead of resource accumulation. The same is true of sea races and forest races. In a particular terrain set, races should quarrel over resources and land, but areas outside the optimal land for that civ would only be warred upon for reasons OTHER than resources and land.

The "how to get this to work" becomes the main question. Many people will argue that they do not want to maintain stereotypes and flavor-based empire building because it will detract from the game. But often these people also want to DO everything and BE everywhere with their particular civ. I argue that in a fantasy context, it's great when epic wars are done not out of economics and direct strategy and to "win"., but for religious, social, and moral, and STORY based reasonings.
-Qes

QES said:

I know, but part of the virtue of a specific tile is in its relation to another tile. Deserts and mountains are "bad" tiles. THis makes the other tiles "good". We dont want to eliminate this fundamental dynamic without good cause. Simply making the mountains useful, deprives them of their purpose, same with desert. Now, If we wanted to say that dwarves in particular are less subject to the limitaions of mountains, then we can provide them with alternate means of development to encourage their living in/near mountains. But on the whole, the purpose of a "dead" space is to increase the value of "non-dead" spaces.

-Qes

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Well how about making it so dwarves can work mountain and hill tiles but not flatland tiles? If this could be done, I dont know. But if tis could be dont with the dwarves and other races that have a particular habitat that they only get good resources and production ot of favored tiles.