Birth of the Plutonian Liberation Front

Bozo Erectus

Master Baker
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Pluto vote 'hijacked' in revolt

A fierce backlash has begun against the decision by astronomers to strip Pluto of its status as a planet.

On Thursday, experts approved a definition of a planet that demoted Pluto to a lesser category of object.

But the lead scientist on Nasa's robotic mission to Pluto has lambasted the ruling, calling it "embarrassing".

And the chair of the committee set up to oversee agreement on a definition implied that the vote had effectively been "hijacked".


I have nothing but ridicule for this decision
Alan Stern, Southwest Research Institute

The new solar system
The vote took place at the International Astronomical Union's (IAU) 10-day General Assembly in Prague. The IAU has been the official naming body for astronomy since 1919.

Only 424 astronomers who remained in Prague for the last day of the meeting took part.

An initial proposal by the IAU to add three new planets to the Solar System - the asteroid Ceres, Pluto's moon Charon and the distant world known as 2003 UB313 - met with considerable opposition at the meeting. Days of heated debate followed during which four separate proposals were tabled.

Eventually, the scientists adopted historic guidelines that see Pluto relegated to a secondary category of "dwarf planets".

Drawing the line

Dr Alan Stern, who leads the US space agency's New Horizons mission to Pluto and did not vote in Prague, told BBC News: "It's an awful definition; it's sloppy science and it would never pass peer review - for two reasons.

Pluto discoverer Clyde Tombaugh pictured in 1980 (AP)
Pluto was discovered in 1930 by the American Clyde Tombaugh
"Firstly, it is impossible and contrived to put a dividing line between dwarf planets and planets. It's as if we declared people not people for some arbitrary reason, like 'they tend to live in groups'.

"Secondly, the actual definition is even worse, because it's inconsistent."

One of the three criteria for planethood states that a planet must have "cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit". The largest objects in the Solar System will either aggregate material in their path or fling it out of the way with a gravitational swipe.

Pluto was disqualified because its highly elliptical orbit overlaps with that of Neptune.

But Dr Stern pointed out that Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Neptune have also not fully cleared their orbital zones. Earth orbits with 10,000 near-Earth asteroids. Jupiter, meanwhile, is accompanied by 100,000 Trojan asteroids on its orbital path.

These rocks are all essentially chunks of rubble left over from the formation of the Solar System more than four billion years ago.

"If Neptune had cleared its zone, Pluto wouldn't be there," he added.

Stern said like-minded astronomers had begun a petition to get Pluto reinstated. Car bumper stickers compelling motorists to "Honk if Pluto is still a planet" have gone on sale over the internet and e-mails circulating about the decision have been describing the IAU as the "Irrelevant Astronomical Union".

'Inconvenient arrangements'

Owen Gingerich chaired the IAU's planet definition committee and helped draft an initial proposal raising the number of planets from nine to 12.

The Harvard professor emeritus blamed the outcome in large part on a "revolt" by dynamicists - astronomers who study the motion and gravitational effects of celestial objects.

"In our initial proposal we took the definition of a planet that the planetary geologists would like. The dynamicists felt terribly insulted that we had not consulted with them to get their views. Somehow, there were enough of them to raise a big hue and cry," Professor Gingerich said.

"Their revolt raised enough of a fuss to destroy the scientific integrity and subtlety of the [earlier] resolution."

He added: "There were 2,700 astronomers in Prague during that 10-day period. But only 10% of them voted this afternoon. Those who disagreed and were determined to block the other resolution showed up in larger numbers than those who felt 'oh well, this is just one of those things the IAU is working on'."

E-voting

Professor Gingerich, who had to return home to the US and therefore could not vote himself, said he would like to see electronic ballots introduced in future.

Alan Stern agreed: "I was not allowed to vote because I was not in a room in Prague on Thursday 24th. Of 10,000 astronomers, 4% were in that room - you can't even claim consensus.

"If everyone had to travel to Washington DC every time we wanted to vote for President, we would have very different results because no one would vote. In today's world that is idiotic. I have nothing but ridicule for this decision."

He added that he could not see the resolution standing for very long and did not plan to change any of the astronomy textbook he was currently writing.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5283956.stm

I knew it! This will not stand, we're drawing a line in the cosmic dust! This absurd vote will be ignored and Pluto is going to remain a planet.

El Pluto, unido, hamas sera vencido!

Ok all kidding aside, what does the local anti planet faction have to say to the objections raised in the article?
 
"We're the Liberation Front of Pluto crack Suicide Squad, we're here to rescue you!"

*pulls out swords*

suicides.jpg
 
ye gods, why argue over such an inconsequencial issue?
it makes no difference whether pluto is referred to as a planet or object.
why is europe still a continent?
 
Now theyre gunning for our planets. At some point people have to say enoughs enough.
 
carlosMM said:
There's worse things to die for than that!





:lol:
This is Fort Sumter. The battle for the Solar System begins here. Which side will you be on? [/deep movie trailer voice]
 
The Article said:
He added: "There were 2,700 astronomers in Prague during that 10-day period. But only 10% of them voted this afternoon. Those who disagreed and were determined to block the other resolution showed up in larger numbers than those who felt 'oh well, this is just one of those things the IAU is working on'."

If that's really the case then:
1. TOUGH SH!T to all of those who wanted to keep Pluto as a planet. If this was important to you, all you had to do is get away from the free soda fountain and move your fat behind to vote. If you did not bother to vote, then it was not important to you, so now you just shut up.
2. That's how democracy works. Whining about a low turn-out at the booths will usually not change a lot of things, and potential US presidents are still in denial about that.

Seriously I can't believe this moron is serious. "oh no the people who were more motivated than us won! That's so unfair!"
 
But then this is just needlessly lowering science down to the level of local politics. As someone in the article pointed out, this should be thrown open to all astronomers everywhere, not just 2700 people, of which only 424 manage to vote. That doesnt sound like science to me. Id like to see a response from Anti-Planetistas to this specifically:
"Firstly, it is impossible and contrived to put a dividing line between dwarf planets and planets. It's as if we declared people not people for some arbitrary reason, like 'they tend to live in groups'.

"Secondly, the actual definition is even worse, because it's inconsistent."

One of the three criteria for planethood states that a planet must have "cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit". The largest objects in the Solar System will either aggregate material in their path or fling it out of the way with a gravitational swipe.

Pluto was disqualified because its highly elliptical orbit overlaps with that of Neptune.

But Dr Stern pointed out that Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Neptune have also not fully cleared their orbital zones. Earth orbits with 10,000 near-Earth asteroids. Jupiter, meanwhile, is accompanied by 100,000 Trojan asteroids on its orbital path.

These rocks are all essentially chunks of rubble left over from the formation of the Solar System more than four billion years ago.

"If Neptune had cleared its zone, Pluto wouldn't be there," he added.
 
Okay first to linklist!

The other threads on the IAU redifiniton:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=183588
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=183524
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=182968
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=182220
A recent debate thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=175845
My proposed definition scheme:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4220429&postcount=24

Old semi-relevant threads:
Size of the Planets, A Comparison
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=175804
Astronomy Picture thread
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=61837
What is a planet?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=130544
Tenth Planet Has A Moon
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=130437
The 12th Planet (funny!)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=98113
tenth planet?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=81976


Now as to Bozo's question:
They shoulda gone with my wording, the whole "clears orbit" of debris is misleading. The idea of a planet being a master of it's orbital domain was on the right track, but the neglected to make it explicit.
The line really isn't arbitrary, the 8 planets in the solar system do by and large control thier orbital domains with comparitively few objects in the oribital domain (there are still "a lot", but there's a whole lot everywhere given the massive amount of small bodies in the solar system). The few places where there are a very high amount like Jupiter's Trojans are places where they orbit with the planet in very special mathematical relationships that minimize contact.

Pluto doesn't have this orbital control which is characteristic of the 8 planets.
 
I don't think Europe should be a continent either, and now that Pluto is not a concern, Europe will be my irrational cause of the day. It is only a historical accident that renders Europe a continent.

But at any rate, I will make my stand here and say that Pluto will be a planet over my dead body.
 
Let's just leave things like they were before. 9 planets, Pluto included, that's it. :)

EDIT: Why should Europe not be considered a continent?
 
BirraImperial said:
Let's just leave things like they were before. 9 planets, Pluto included, that's it. :)
Then what about all the other KBOs (especially the one bigger than Pluto)?

BirraImperial said:
EDIT: Why should Europe not be considered a continent?
Because Europe and Asia are obviously the same landmass.
 
Perfection said:
Then what about all the other KBOs (especially the one bigger than Pluto)?

I don't know, maybe name they should come up with a better definition, but not strip Pluto out of their "planet" status
 
I suppose we could start calling Europe a subcontinent, like India.


Which, I suppose, raises a point. Geologists have been denying Europe continental status for generations, without drawing Bozo's ire. Why not adopt the same indifference to astronomers denying Pluto planetary status?
 
Not to nitpick, but when is something a continent or a subcontinent? because Africa is attached to Asia/Europe.
And North and South America are the same landmass.
Should we simply look at tectonic plaques?
 
BirraImperial said:
I don't know, maybe name they should come up with a better definition, but not strip Pluto out of their "planet" status
Well to have a consistant non-arbitrary definition, you either need to go with the definition proposed in the first draft which would add about 50 new planets (including one body that was "stripped" from planethood 150 years ago)(plus more as they are discovered) or you'd have to narrow to the 8 planets.

I just find the emotionalism on the issue rather silly, Pluto doesn't care whether it is a planet or not. It is clearly in a group of objects that includes a whole bunch of non-planets it makes sense to just consider Pluto a member of this group instead of the planets.
 
Masquerouge said:
Not to nitpick, but when is something a continent or a subcontinent? because Africa is attached to Asia/Europe.
And North and South America are the same landmass.
Should we simply look at tectonic plaques?
Well North America, South America and Africa all connect only at small points and by and large are thier own landmasses so I really can see the arguement either way.
 
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