HoF Mod and hammer carryover issues

1. Disclaimer: I've started playing GOTM10 with the HOF Mod save
2. Disclaimer 2: this thread is about an unexpected (at least for me) behavior of carryover production from poprushing, and has no relation with the official save game.

First of all, maybe this thread needed to be moved to another forum, but I find it relevant here as we're starting our 1st HOF Mod-supported GOTM.

Ok, I read somewhere that HOF Mod version 1.61.007 fixes the infamous whipping bug. What is that? Something related to receiving more hammers than you should only while poprushing under Org.Rel, or having a forge, or any production bonus, as stated on the pre-game discussion thread.

DaviddesJ said:

Which bug? There's no real benefit from "slavery bug" until you get a production bonus, i.e., Organized Religion, Forge, etc. That takes quite a while, long after the phase of the game he's discussing. (Especially at Immortal where you aren't likely to found a religion.)

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I read a very informative thread about it on Apolyton site, to which the HOF Mod page leads me.

Seems a quite powerful bug, but even though I think I should use all the allowed tactics so I can have a slight chance on GOTM10, I come to the conclusion that (ab)using the bug requires too much micromanaging for my tastes. I think I'll use the Mod then, their modified advisors and all the stuff seems pretty neat.

I start the game, and at a certain point I am already under slavery, have a boat under production (say 12/45h done) and decide to use the whip. As we're playing epic, 1 pop equals 45h, so I'd assume I get 33h to complete the boat and the 12h remaining are carryover for next item. Much to my surprise, I get 1h from carryover next turn. Is this supposed to be so?

Note: much after that I started 2 test games - 1 under HoF Mod, the other was the test save provided in pre-game discussion. I just entered world builder, gave to myself BW and fishing. Started building a workboat and whipped when pop2. Under Mod- 1h carryover; playing no-Mod: 11h. Totally different results. I could attach those saves, if anyone is interested, but it is very easy to replicate it.

In new HOF mod whipping allows you to finish production and has no carryover. Only your non-slavery hammers will carry over.

Not really, why would the HOF stuff change the game rules? I have tested this and it just seems like the whipping "fix" is broken: it gives 30 hammers/pop for any game speed (tested only normal and epic). I do get the carryover though. I wonder why nobody noticed this before with so many HOF submissions.

I wanted to play using the HOF mod even though I won't be able to exploit the bug, but now it seems that it is just too much of a handicap. Is there a chance that this will be fixed anytime soon? Or can we just use an earlier version of the HOF mod?

This feature was just introduced in the mod. (version 1.61.007 I'm speaking of) and not gametestted much. I get regular 90 hammers per citizen on Marathon speed, however carry over for me only "regular" hammers.

What good is a mod that fixes a bug and creates its own bug that's nearly as bad?

Thanks for pointing this out everyone, I'll take a look into it. I'm a little surprised that this hasn't been noticed up to now as well. That pop-rush fix was put in quite a while ago (1.61.005, 29th July). Note that the supplied GOTM saves will only work with 1.61.007 of the HOF mod, you can't use an older version of the mod, or a newer one if we release a fix in the next month.

It wasn't noticed cause noone plays Epic speeds for HoF unless mandatory - and it hadn't been until GOTM10.

I just saw this too. I whipped at 18/45 and the whip put me at 48/45.

I thought it might be somehow related to chopping being reduced to 30 until you research Math, but I gave myself Math via WB and still got 30 hammers on the whip.

I tested in Marathon and whipped at 12/60, the whip moved me up to 60/60, so it's not just a flat 30 hammers independant of speed.

EDIT: Looks to me like the whip will give a minimum of 30 hammers (regardless of speed), which can overflow if you are close enough to finishing the unit/building. If you have more than 30 to go, but less than the 1 pop whip value, it just finishes the unit/building and only your normal hammers carryover as Lexad said.

grangerm said:

EDIT: Looks to me like the whip will give a minimum of 30 hammers (regardless of speed), which can overflow if you are close enough to finishing the unit/building. If you have more than 30 to go, but less than the 1 pop whip value, it just finishes the unit/building and only your normal hammers carryover as Lexad said.

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At sacrificing 2 pop it also didn't overflow for me.

Here's my stab at explaining it:

At Normal speed, you will always get your 30 hammers and get the overflow you expected.

At epic speed,

If you whip 1 pop, you will get overflow if you have less than 30 hammers left to go. If you have more than 30 hammers left to go, then it will not overflow.

If you whip 2 pop, you will get overflow if you have less than 60 hammers left to go. If you have more than 60 hammers left to go, then it will not overflow.

If you whip 3 pop, you would get overflow if you have less than 90 hammers left to go, but if you have less than 90 left it would be a 2 pop whip. Since you have more than 90 hammers left to go, it will not overflow.

Ditto 4 pop whips and more. You'd never be able to whip N pop and have less than 30*N hammers left, because that would make it a smaller pop whip. So 3 pop whips and above on epic will never provide overflow.

At Marathon,

If you whip 1 pop, you will get overflow if you have less than 30 hammers left to go. If you have more than 30 hammers left to go, then it will not overflow.

If you whip 2 pop, you would get overflow if you have less than 60 hammers left to go, but if you have less than 60 left it would be a 1 pop whip. Since you have more than 60 hammers left to go, it will not overflow.

Ditto for 3 pop whips and above.

Thanx!
Seems correct, at least for Marathon. Thus you can't get more than 30-hammer overflow (expect it to be a bonus for emergency rush, i.e. unintended).

You should still be able to get more than 30 hammers overflow depending on when you whipped. If you whipped at 80/90, you should end up getting 180/90. At least that's my understanding.

The problem is that now we have another cutoff point where whipping is either super-effective or just plain effective. If you whipped at 59/90, you'd only go to 90/90. If you whipped at 61/90, you'd get 151/90. I'm not sure about 60/90, but the point is there's a huge gap now which encourages micromanagement.

why would you get 180/90 if you whip at 80/90? what it should do is go to 125/90, shouldn't it?

grangerm said:

You should still be able to get more than 30 hammers overflow depending on when you whipped. If you whipped at 80/90, you should end up getting 180/90. At least that's my understanding.

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Nope, atr Marathon you get from 156/180 to 186/180, so it works as I descrubed. Have not tested with production boni though

on epic, you are supposed to get 45 hammers per pop though, so even if the mod was supposed to make it so that there was no overflow, it is still shortchanging the pop itself, isn't it?

No, you get 45, jusy the overflow is limited by 30 at any speed (w/o production boni, haven't analysed them).

This is disappointing. I was looking forward to being able to play a GOTM without my whipping efficiency spreadsheet handy.

Guess I'll have to wait till the warlords GOTM...

I wonder why nobody stated what should really be fixed with HOF-mod.
First of all the basic problem:
If you whip, you ALWAYS get a multiple of the basic hammers (so on epic 45)
The bug is, that if you get a production bonus (from organized religion, forge...), it can give you, for example, 3*45 hammers for 2 pops rushed.
To know how this happens and use it often gives you a great advantage!

Civ4 often uses overflow, that is not the problem.

I wonder why nobody stated what should really be fixed with HOF-mod

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- well, because it's kinda common knowledge
The problem is that overflow in Mod is bugged.

I already played GOTM10 with the HOF mod and noticed this too late. Oh well... Maybe you should give this post a new title: "Read This Before Playing GOTM10 with the HOF MOD!"