A little FfH balancing mod

Maniac · Sep 2, 2006

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/53302/FfHtestmod.zip

This download contains a bunch of edited XML and python files for Fall from Heaven version 15j. They’re meant for me to try out a couple changes and see if they improve gameplay and balance. Several of the changes are regarding issues that have been mentioned repeatedly on this forum, so I thought I’d post it here too. Perhaps some of you are interested in trying it out as well. If you are, place the zip file in FfH\Assets and extract it there.

Here’s the change list:

Leader Traits

Organized

Production speed of the Dungeon instead of Lighthouse is now doubled.

Lighthouse production doubling really falls out of tone compared to the rest of the trait. Since FfH has added a second maintenance reducing building, why not change this trait?

Expansive

Production speed of the Smokehouse instead of Harbor is now doubled.

Same reasoning as with Organized.

Aggressive

Production speed of the Training Yard instead of Drydock is now doubled.
Mounted units now get the Combat I promotion for free.

You hardly need to build drydocks in all your cities, so double production speed for that building means little. A Training Yard production boost also has a nice synergy with the Nationhood civic.
Regarding Combat I for mounted units, the cavalry branch could use a boost. As does the Aggressive trait. It seemed rather weak to me compared to the Raider trait. That one gives a better promotion for free to three unit categories, one more XP per combat (so it’s rather easy to get Combat I quickly with the Raider trait as well), and in addition also extra gold from pillaging.

Spiritual

Production speed of the Pagan Temple, Basilica, Weaponsmith, Grove, Asylum and Demons’ Altar is now doubled. No longer so for the production of the five religious temples.

Have a look at the leaders who have the Spiritual trait. Most of them have a clear connection to one religion. Yet due to Spiritual trait giving production boosts for all temples, it’s most beneficial to try and have as many religions as possible in your cities. IMO this seems rather ridiculous. So what did I do instead? The Pagan Temple production boost stays, and besides that there are five buildings included that are only beneficial to build everywhere for one religion. Basilica, Asylum and Demons’ Altar (boosted with +15% science) can only be built if you are following Order, Runes or Veil. Runes and Leaves don’t have a unique building, so I had to be a bit more creative there. For non-Leaves or –Runes civs, it’s sufficient to build only one Grove or Weaponsmith, so the effect of doubled production speed is minimal. But if you’re following the correct religion and civic, Grove and Weaponsmith give +2 happiness at a cost of 150 hammers. Note here I changed the Arete civic to let Weaponsmithies provide happiness. Better idea for the Runes is always appreciated!

Civics

Aristocracy

It now grants +3 instead of +2 commerce on farms.

Arete

Weaponsmithies provide +2 happiness when running this civic.

Guilds

Specialists produce one extra gold.

I’m a little worried this change might be unbalanced, but there’s only one way to find out. If it is overpowered, I’ll probably let workshops produce one extra food with this civic. Though this kinda duplicates the heavy-hammer strategy of the Serfdom civic. Not ideal.

Fend for Themselves

Units receive +1 free XP.

Organized Religion, Theocracy, Pacifism, Crusade
Free Religion

The first four civics receive one unhappy citizen per non-state religion in a city.
Free Religion loses its +1 happiness per religion present in a city.

Having multiple religions in your cities is way too beneficial in Civ4 IMO. This is even more the case in FfH, where temples provide even more benefits, and where the theme is one of good versus evil, not one of let’s get all along despite our differences. While each non-state religion gives +1 unhappiness, this is cancelled out by the incense/gems/reagents happiness of the religion’s temple. As Temples provide other benefits as well, I’d say it’s STILL beneficial to have multiple religions in your cities, but hopefully no longer so beneficial that you actively go spreading it around as much as you can.
There’s a strange bug in the civics screen. The religious civics info says something like “+12411240 per religion in a city”. Still, the effect of extra unhappiness works as intended as far as I can tell.

Terrain Improvements

Watermill

Watermills produce two extra commerce.

In vanilla civ watermills produce two extra commerce with some tech IIRC. This effect hasn’t been taken over by FfH and as a consequence watermills were rather useless.

Workshop

Workshops produce one extra hammer.

Even in vanilla civ I’ve never built workshops, but there there’s at least a civic that increases their production, so I assume they’re useful there at least in some niche circumstances. FfH doesn’t have this, so let’s try out giving them an extra hammer from the start. I think this might be too powerful. If it is, I’ll change the Guilds civic to increase workshop production. Though actually if it were up to me, I’d just remove this terrain improvement altogether. But I guess I shouldn’t make too extreme changes to FfH.

Mines and Dwarven Mines

Mines produce one extra hammer upon discovery of Mithril Working.

In vanilla civ mines are boosted by railroads. Those don’t exist in FfH, leaving a gap and unbalancing the terrain improvements towards each other IMO.

Various boosts for the Horseback Riding tech

Horseback Riding instead of the Trade tech now provides one extra trade route in all your cities.
The Mobility II promotion requires Horseback Riding. Take that, recon lovers!
The Post Office is available with Horseback Riding. It gives +50% trade yield and +1 health with Horses. The intention is to make this a building only for landlocked cities. To achieve this, you can only build either a harbour or a post office. For landlocked cities the choice thus defaults to a post office. For coastl cities both appear on the build list first, but since a harbour provides more health, you're better off constructing that building. Reason to make this landlocked only: there are already many buildings that boost trade yield.

Buildings

Mentioned before:

Weaponsmith gives +2 happiness with the Arete civic.
Demons’ Altar gives +15% science.
Addition of the Post Office.

Also:

Carnival gives +1 happiness with the Gunpowder resource. Fireworks!

Python

Good AIs cannot run the Fend for Themselves civic.
When running the Sacrifice the Weak civic, a diseased or plagued unit that dies in combat has 1/3 chance of spawning a Diseased Corpse.

That’s it!

Maniac

Kael · Sep 2, 2006

Very cool, thanks Maniac. I would love to hear some feedback from others on the changes (after you have tried them out and given them a fair chance).

Chandrasekhar · Sep 2, 2006

Looks interesting. Just thought I'd point something out, though.

Fully developed town with Arcane Lore
+1 :hammers:

, +4

, +1

when on river.

Aristocratic farm with Sanitation
+1 :food:

, +3

, +1

when on river.

So, towns get an extra hammer and commerce, but aristocratic farms get an extra food. Just keep in mind that a farm is instantly ready when built, and gives very little gold on pillage. Further, they're built on resource tiles to get extra benefit, as well. Vanilla cottages could get a hammer and eight commerce, so we're really making them less useful here. Be careful not to overdo it.

Silverkiss · Sep 2, 2006

M@ni@c said:
Free Religion loses its +1 happiness per religion present in a city.

This will hurt the Grigori... It was the only religious civic that worked for them...

Sureshot · Sep 2, 2006

i like those changes, can't say i disagree with any of them except maybe the workshop... id say have a tech that removes the -1 :food:

at some point but don't add production (otherwise they just become mines), and maybe add a :commerce:

along the line somewhere. though i have never ever built a workshop so what do i know? lol

oh, and trade should still give +1 trade routes, but horseback adding an extra one is good

nice work

TheJopa · Sep 2, 2006

Will try mod. At glance: Leader trait changes seem fine. Civic changes... Arete- ok. Aristocracy- will try (I never used it but some said it was good) Guilds need any kind of boost so OK. But fend for themselves- I simply dont like flavor of it making population stronger. Perhaps only strong survive but still... Workshops and watermills- God bless you maniac! IMO you should give workshops +1 extra hammer straight (like you did) +1 additional latter in tech tree or for some civic (IIRC now they have -1food +1 hammer and up to +2 hammers with techs)

I like that you improved horse branch- I never research it.

Overall, seems good but I will try and give real feedback. And you should mention that, in case patch comes out, players will have to reinstall FfH before applying patch.

BTW I think this is only mod that haves it's ovn mod! FfH is more than mod anyway

Sureshot · Sep 2, 2006

oh, and love the use of caravans in the horseline, caravans were always fun before, and a straight up production transfer is nice

DMN · Sep 2, 2006

I like most changes. Maybe you could give Sacrifice the Weak the same XP bonus you gave to Fend for Themselves? Both civics promote Social Darwinism and should harden the survivors a bit, and such a bonus nicely offsets the diplomatic penalty.

I especially love the religious civic happiness change, it always struck me as weird that having many conflicting religions was so beneficial. I'm not sure about the workshop change, but others mentioned that already. Oh, and I'm also not sure about the caravan, it may allow players to build wonders in advance and grab it as soon as they get the technology. Maybe it should give slightly less hammers than it costs so that it's at least more efficient to build the wonder itself?

@Julius Bloodmoon:
It doesn't especially hurt the Grigori as this change applies to all religious civics. Free Religion is still a bonus because it removes the penalty for having non-state religions, effectively producing one happiness per religion more than the other civics.

@Chandrasekhar:
I think your concerns regarding the changes in the aristocracy civic aren't justified. Even if it makes farms more effective than cottages under certain circumstances (if your lands are pillaged often), you need to adopt a civic to keep that benefit. That means you can't run Republic or God King; a huge disadvantage in my opinion. I'd still consider aristocracy a suboptimal choice under most circumstances.

Maniac · Sep 2, 2006

Kael said:
Very cool, thanks Maniac. I would love to hear some feedback from others on the changes (after you have tried them out and given them a fair chance).

Hear that people? Download it all! :mischief:

To Chandrasekhar & JuliusBloodmoon: DMN says it all.

Sureshot said:
i like those changes, can't say i disagree with any of them except maybe the workshop... id say have a tech that removes the -1 at some point but don't add production (otherwise they just become mines), and maybe add a along the line somewhere. though i have never ever built a workshop so what do i know? lol

True that. But if you remove the food penalty or give them a commerce boost, don't they just become a variant of the watermill, town or windmill?
That's why I'd prefer to just remove the workshop. It, just like the watermill, doesn't anything significant, except perhaps some nice graphics.

To rant a little, I guess when Firaxis made all these different terrain improvements, they wanted to imitate the success of the SMAC terraformation system, which also had lots of terraforming options. What Firaxis forgot though is that a reason SMAC's terraformation system was fun, was because you could build more than one improvement on a single tile (creating more meaningful combinations), and that you had the choice between quick-to-build terraformations, or more productive terraformations, but with a much longer construction time (creating a choice to or not to heavily invest in terraformers, and having as consequence your formers always had something left to do). Civ4 doesn't have all this, which means you can have only a limited number of meaningful terrain improvements => redundant workshops and watermills, a boring terraformation system & your workers idling half the time.

oh, and trade should still give +1 trade routes, but horseback adding an extra one is good

To explain my reasoning for this change: Trade already gives the option for two extra trade routes, and the more trade routes you can have, the less meaningful getting an extra one becomes. Better to limit the amount of trade routes one can get.

nice work

Does that mean you will try it out?

oh, and love the use of caravans in the horseline, caravans were always fun before, and a straight up production transfer is nice

Ah, those aren't used in the horseline. Neither are they really meant as part of this little test mod. I really try to ignore that unit as long as I have something else decent to build. I just didn't bother to take it out as you can just ignore the unit if you want. Though if you'd like it included in the game as a full feature, I guess the tech that gives Large Animal Stables or the Camel Archer would be fitting.

DMN said:
I like most changes. Maybe you could give Sacrifice the Weak the same XP bonus you gave to Fend for Themselves? Both civics promote Social Darwinism and should harden the survivors a bit, and such a bonus nicely offsets the diplomatic penalty.

Could do. Though I'm hoping someone will write a python event that will spawn diseased corpses under Sacrifice the Weak when your units with diseased, plagued or withered die.

Btw, I already noticed something after playing twenty turns. All civs now switch to Fend for Themselves, even the good ones.

What I hoping was that the good civs would use Basic Care, and the evil ones fend for themselves. But of course the AI doesn't think of the diplomatic penalty when using Fend for Themselves.

Perhaps forbid Good civs from using this civic? = only evil and neutral civs can use, similar mechanic as Public Healers.

Sureshot · Sep 2, 2006

ill try it, though not tonight cause of multplayer

and about workshops, my opinion on them isnt very good, as i know nothing about them sincei never ever used them lol

Maniac · Sep 3, 2006

Could someone who understands Python tell me if this event would prevent good AIs to run the Fend for Themselves civic?

Code:

def cannotDoCivic(argsList):
	ePlayer = argsList[0]
	eCivic = argsList[1]
	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(ePlayer)

	if eCivic == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVIC_FEND_FOR_THEMSELVES'):
		if pPlayer.isHuman() == False and pPlayer.getAlignment() == 1:
			return True

Unser Giftzwerg · Sep 3, 2006

DMN said:
I like most changes. Maybe you could give Sacrifice the Weak the same XP bonus you gave to Fend for Themselves? Both civics promote Social Darwinism and should harden the survivors a bit, and such a bonus nicely offsets the diplomatic penalty.

I especially love the religious civic happiness change, it always struck me as weird that having many conflicting religions was so beneficial. I'm not sure about the workshop change, but others mentioned that already. Oh, and I'm also not sure about the caravan, it may allow players to build wonders in advance and grab it as soon as they get the technology. Maybe it should give slightly less hammers than it costs so that it's at least more efficient to build the wonder itself?

@Julius Bloodmoon:
It doesn't especially hurt the Grigori as this change applies to all religious civics. Free Religion is still a bonus because it removes the penalty for having non-state religions, effectively producing one happiness per religion more than the other civics.

@Chandrasekhar:
I think your concerns regarding the changes in the aristocracy civic aren't justified. Even if it makes farms more effective than cottages under certain circumstances (if your lands are pillaged often), you need to adopt a civic to keep that benefit. That means you can't run Republic or God King; a huge disadvantage in my opinion. I'd still consider aristocracy a suboptimal choice under most circumstances.

I used to think the same thing about Aristocracy, until I played a game where I absolutely had to reduce civics cost. So out went God King and in went Aristocracy. OMG, is that a nice civic. Civics costs go down ... maintenence costs go down ... and a whole pile of new commerce appears instantly. I used to have a hard time giving up God King ... Aristocracy is three times as "addictive" once you've selected it and your civ has adjusted to the changes.

(Ths is another reason early Cottages are too powerful. There is no reason to build Farms right now. Not until the midgame, after religion has been invented. Then some farms are nice to speed city growth. But every Farm costs you a Cottage, so even then I build the bare minimum.)

Nevertheless I am very much opposed to the extra :commerce:

for Farms here. I base this on the general opinion that the game already supplies too much :commerce:

, and, upon my experiences that Agriculture is already a fine, effective civic. The game's economy needs cooling down, not heating up. So goes the general opinion currently in force.

I am also firmly opposed to Caravans. 100% resource transfer units simply means the game turns into a-stockpile-the-caravans-and-rush-to-Wonders game. It would turn this fine mod into so much chrome. Ignore the bells and whistles and get busy building Caravans. IMO: :sleep:

If carvans make it to the official mod, that would probably be a deal-breaker for me. I suspect it would be so detrimental to my sense of gaming fun that I would stop playing FfH. But that's just me.

Unser Giftzwerg · Sep 3, 2006

M@ni@c[B said:
Leader Traits[/B]

Organized

Production speed of the Dungeon instead of Lighthouse is now doubled.

Lighthouse production doubling really falls out of tone compared to the rest of the trait. Since FfH has added a second maintenance reducing building, why not change this trait?

Personally, I've always found the Lighthouse to be a shrewd choice for the Organized building type. Lighthouses are built on remote, lonely, wet sites, are staffed by dedicated operators. What a perfect manifestation of an 'organized' trait, to set up such a scattered network established for the public good.

Dungeons instead? Organized doesn't mean oppressive. at least not to me. It means their leaders look at the big picture.

Of course, that's just the 'flavorful' look at the matter. From a game performance point of view, this change and the Harbor change seems rather arbitrary. I don't see any glaring gameplay flaws corrected by either of these changes. They all seem potato/potahto to me. :shrug:

Production speed of the Training Yard instead of Drydock is now doubled.
Mounted units now get the Combat I promotion for free.

You hardly need to build drydocks in all your cities, so double production speed for that building means little. A Training Yard production boost also has a nice synergy with the Nationhood civic.
Regarding Combat I for mounted units, the cavalry branch could use a boost. As does the Aggressive trait. It seemed rather weak to me compared to the Raider trait. That one gives a better promotion for free to three unit categories, one more XP per combat (so its rather easy to get Combat I quickly with the Raider trait as well), and in addition also extra gold from pillaging.

This change in contrast sets out to address a gameplay weakness. So this change strkes me a definitely worth a try.

Spiritual

Production speed of the Pagan Temple, Basilica, Weaponsmith, Grove, Asylum and Demons Altar is now doubled. No longer so for the production of the five religious temples.

Have a look at the leaders who have the Spiritual trait. Most of them have a clear connection to one religion. Yet due to Spiritual trait giving production boosts for all temples, its most beneficial to try and have as many religions as possible in your cities. IMO this seems rather ridiculous.

I agree. In vanilla civ there was one Temple type...in FfH there are 6, and Spriritual civs can build them all at 50% cost. I agree with your motivations and general approach here ... defintely worth the test-drive. And I agree with you that the Weaponsmith is not really the "right" Runes special building. But it'l serve to test the principle.

I would also add that I think Spiritual realms get off a bit too easy when it comes time for a revolution. Perhaps swapping one civic should cost 0 turns, but switching 3 or 4 or more at once should cause some lost time to unrest. I say this because FfH offers man more opportunities to change civics and religions. The Spiritual trait design dates back to Civ 1, when revolutions occured only twice or maybe thrice in a game. In ffH, Revolutions occur many times ... I'm not convinced the SPirituality trait should still operate under Civ 1 assumptions. :shrug:

Civics

Aristocracy

It now grants +3 instead of +2 commerce on farms.

Arete

Weaponsmithies provide +2 happiness when running this civic.

Guilds

Specialists produce one extra gold.

Im a little worried this change might be unbalanced, but theres only one way to find out. If it is overpowered, Ill probably let workshops produce one extra food with this civic. Though this kinda duplicates the heavy-hammer strategy of the Serfdom civic. Not ideal.

Click to expand...

Don't like the Aristocracy change at all, I understand the Arete change is part of your temples fix so that's fine, and I just don't see why specialists should produce gold. Once again, FfH's economy needs cooling, not heating.

Fend for Themselves

Units receive +1 free XP.

Click to expand...

Don't understand the gameplay need nor the "flavor" aspects of this change???

Organized Religion, Theocracy, Pacifism, Crusade
Free Religion

The first four civics receive one unhappy citizen per non-state religion in a city.
Free Religion loses its +1 happiness per religion present in a city.

Having multiple religions in your cities is way too beneficial in Civ4 IMO. This is even more the case in FfH, where temples provide even more benefits, and where the theme is one of good versus evil, not one of lets get all along despite our differences. While each non-state religion gives +1 unhappiness, this is cancelled out by the incense/gems/reagents happiness of the religions temple. As Temples provide other benefits as well, Id say its STILL beneficial to have multiple religions in your cities, but hopefully no longer so beneficial that you actively go spreading it around as much as you can.

Click to expand...

Good change to try for the right reasons.

Workshop

Workshops produce one extra hammer.

Even in vanilla civ Ive never built workshops, but there theres at least a civic that increases their production, so I assume theyre useful there at least in some niche circumstances. FfH doesnt have this, so lets try out giving them an extra hammer from the start. I think this might be too powerful. If it is, Ill change the Guilds civic to increase workshop production. Though actually if it were up to me, Id just remove this terrain improvement altogether. But I guess I shouldnt make too extreme changes to FfH.

Click to expand...

Workshops are useful for cities in vast swaths of grassland, and for some island cities. They actually are quite useful in Vanilla civ at the upper tech levels, albeit as a niche improvement. But in Vanilla, you cannot have priests throwing up new forests and Druids terraforming the heck out of unproductive land. So you just don't see those endless swaths of in FfH grassland so much. (And the Watermill/Mines change are fine, worth trying.)

Various boosts for the Horseback Riding tech

Horseback Riding instead of the Trade tech now provides one extra trade route in all your cities. Also, the Mobility II promotion requires Horseback Riding. Take that, recon lovers! I also want to include a Post Office building, but as mentioned before, I dont know how to implement it well.

Click to expand...

Once again, good changes to try out and mae for the right reasons.

Theres also a Caravan unit included which can hurry production with its full hammer value.

Click to expand...

How do I put this? Oh yes ... (I don't want to sound mean, but for my money Caravans really, really, really, really, really, really suck.)

Bottom line:

Unser Giftzwerg · Sep 3, 2006

Do you take requests?

If so, here's mine:

Goblins begin with move 2 not Move 1. That's it.

I think the lack of a puny but fast Raging Barbarian unit changes Raging Barbarians from Profound Annoyance to Guys Who Show Up Frequently Offering To Train Your Troops. I suspect this simple change would make it much harder to race out of the gate spamming Cottages all over. I suspect this simple change would have a nice "cooling" effect on the FfH opening game economy.

Soooo ... if you take requests...

Grillick · Sep 3, 2006

The Grigori will suffer far too much from your change to the religious civics. I suggesting making the Agnostice trait give you +1 happy per non-state religion IF you are going to make non-state religions give +1 unhappy in all civics except Free Religion.

Quetz · Sep 3, 2006

hear hear on goblins getting move 2

cant say i like those civic changes too much, was hoping for more unit/civ balancing, especially the Guilds one. Why should specialists make gold?? If its overpowered, remove it, dont boost something else.

Endovior · Sep 3, 2006

Hmm... that kinda goes against the Grigori flavor, though...

Ooh! How about this...

The Agnosticism trait gives you +1 Happy in all cities, -1 per non-state religion.

Silverkiss · Sep 3, 2006

With Maniac´s changes plus what you´re suggesting, the grigori will be worse than horse sh***.

Grillick · Sep 3, 2006

It doesn't go against the Grigori flavor, if you take into account the already posted changes to each and every religious civic. In total, the Grigori will be unaffected by religion in their lands, which I think fits their flavor perfectly.

Gamestation · Sep 3, 2006

Goblins begin with move 2 not Move 1.

Are you aware that at one time this had to be completely abolished? The barbarians having worker sniping scouts really annoyed a lot of people which was why the goblin was created to replace the barbarian scout. It probably would not be a bad idea to cool the economy down, BUT the question I now ask is will it really cool economies down?

Think about the Ljosalfar and the Khazad. I believe you would describe these economies as running "hot." What difference would it really make if goblins had 2 movement points if the workers for these races have a synergy with terrain that require 2 movement points? The Ljosalfar would prefer massive forests surrounding their lands and the Khazad can run right through hills far more easily than 2 movement goblins. Playing a barbarian race would give the player another advantage against the AI's less than perfect management of workers. Any other civ could try using a scout escort with the workers from the start and therefore still be able to spam early cottages.

I think that the idea may require some re-evaluation. It just does not sound like a very reliable way to slow down the player's economy (might work on AI though).

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