Ottomans: Beeline to Gunpowder?

I've been thinking about this for a while... since Janissaries practically destroy each and every less advanced unit you can think of... how good is it a strategy to get to Gunpowder? Any thoughts?

I've been thinking to get Civil Service via Oracle (depending on difficulty level), research Math -> Currency, Alphabet, Construction, Engineering then click on Gunpowder to beeline.

Be better to get gunpowder before engineering otherwise chemistry is only tech away.

It is an excellent tactic. Janisaries are **** hot against nearly any other unit of the time and can hold their own against grenadiers. Not as good as riflemen though.
I don't think there is a unit that can take them out easily either.
Getting them before 1000 AD is quite simple and doesn't cripple you in terms of other necessary techs.
I did read of someone who played the French and he claimed he could get gunpowder around 500 AD.

CivDude86 said:

Be better to get gunpowder before engineering otherwise chemistry is only tech away.

Click to expand...

And probably prohibitively expensive. Besides, do you really want to go to war a Cat/Janissary army?

I personnly avoid getting gunpowder for as long as possible just because I think the game is more fun when using melee and archer weapons

Ive actually tried this a few times. It works pretty well. You have to backtrack a bit later to get cought up on techs but by that time most of the techs you skipped are fairly old and easy to get in a few turns.

They still have a pretty short shelf life for a UU unless your playing on marathon speed or something though.

I sort of think of their UU as the spearhead of a big push that grens are going to complete atm. Though, to be honest, trebs will still be doing most of the heavy lifting for you.

Pretty neat civ imo.

Good point about Engineering then Chemistry. We probably shouldn't get it earlier to extend the life of the Jans. But still, Grenadiers are more expensive--why take a cab when the subway will do?

Well, we will be playing Marathon anyway if it's military.

Here's my proposed tech paths for Gunpowder. Note that Mehmed starts with Wheel and Agri.

Initial:
Mining, Bronze, Pottery, Masonry (if needed), Mysticism, Meditation, Priesthood, Writing...

Path 1: CS slingshot (easier IMO due to Bureaucracy)
CoL, Alphabet, Civil Service (from Oracle), Paper, Education, Gunpowder, [Math, Construction, Engineering, Chemistry]

Path 2: Machinery slingshot (if you feel like you can get Monarchy and Feudalism from AI)
Metal Casting, Alphabet, Machinery (from Oracle), Monarchy (from AI), Feudalism (from AI), Guilds, Gunpowder, [Math, Construction, Engineering, Chemistry]

The advantage about path 2 is, we can get longbows, and by getting HBR and Iron Working from the AI we will also have Knights alongside the Janissaries. In path 1, we'll be stuck with axemen for a long time and the army will be comprised of mostly only Janissaries afterward.

CivDude86 said:

Be better to get gunpowder before engineering otherwise chemistry is only tech away.

Click to expand...

Who cares? With most civs, you want grenadiers to take on medieval units, musketmen just aren't that good. But with the Ottomans I'd much rather have a strength 10 3/4 unit that costs 80 hammers than a strength 12 unit that costs 100, so I would deliberately delay researching chemistry until someone else is sporting rifles or grenadiers. Even if someone else jumps to cavalry, I'd rather use pikemen as a counter than much-more-expensive grenadiers (rifles are quite a few techs away).

I think part of why people underestimate the Jannisary is that they're thinking 'once I have gunpowder, I'm close to chemistry'. But the Jannisary means you don't need chemistry until someone else is fielding grenadiers or riflemen, which really extends the window for Jannisaries.

The beeline to gunpowder works like a charm even after getting engineering at least on marathon speed. The janissaries most likely wont do to much damage unless they have seige support so construction is probably required at the least. I tried this in my last prince game and it was probably the easiest conquest victory Ive ever had. I didn't build the oracle or even research civil service, but conquered the pyramids early and rode that all the way to engineering and gunpowder. Once I hit gunpowder, I switched to police state, theocracy and vassalage and dropped science to 30%. I pretty much conquered everyone in the time it would have taken to research chemistry anyway. I think I built 40 janisaries and lost 3. I believe this tactic would work pretty easily on monarch or maybe even emperor given similair circumstances. The Ottamans are crazy good.

Good, I see some approval

I've yet to try this strategy myself, though the more I think about this, I'm getting more and more convinced that this is a good idea.

Going back to the paths I posted above, Path 2 (the Machinery Slingshot path) costs 600 research points (on Normal Speed) less, 1600 less if you got Monarchy (300) and Feudalism (700) from the AI.

At the point where you complete Gunpowder in Path 2, (especially if you beat the AI to Monarchy and Feudalism), you shouldn't run into too many longbows, let alone macemen and even less knights. You can then research/trade Math -> Construction, Code of Laws -> Civil Service to get catapults, courthouses and bureaucracy to help in your invasion.

So Path 2 is cheaper... is Path 1 still viable besides the fact you get Bureaucracy ealier? Well, after Gunpowder, you can easily go Philosophy -> Liberalism, then pick Nationalism as your free tech. OMG. You can now draft Jans from newly conquered cities.

The patch just made Mehmed better and the CS slingshot worse. So it's high time to make the Gunpowder beeline strategy a reality with a test game!

--- Settings ---
Game version: Warlords 2.08
Speed: Epic (results may be better in Marathon)
Map: Standard Fractal
Opponents: 6

--- Summary ---
I got gunpowder around 740AD. Granted I took a detour to Currency and Alphabet which slowed it down, and this was on Epic speed, so this can still be refined, or gotten earlier (in year terms) on Marathon speed.

In this Gunpowder beeline we will take the Civil Service -> Education path to Gunpowder, since it provides the greatest economic benefit to help support your first Janissary war. The Guilds->Gunpowder beeline is less beakers worth but you may not have the economic buildings to recover from your first conquest.

--- The New CS Slingshot and All the Way to Gunpowder ---
This is obviously easier with a Financial leader, but Mehmed is not one of them.

With the additional requirement of Mathematics, the CS Slingshot has been slowed down but it is still doable on Prince and lower (when the CS Slingshot is actually still viable). First up, the new AI puts less priority on wonder chasing and more on early expansion and military.

Note: Mehmed starts with Wheel and Agriculture.

In this game, first research is Animal Husbandry since animals were available, otherwise just stick with Agri and go straight to Pottery, then Mining, Bronze, Writing, Mysticism, Polytheism, Priesthood, Mathematics, Code of Laws.

(It's good to have bronze or horses for anti-barbarian defense. If you don't have any, start Archery and forgo Civil Service for the Feudalism slingshot instead.)

Grow to size three with your food sources first while building a couple of warriors for early defense. In this game I did worker at size 2 then chop a settler at size 3. New city goes Worker first (Expansive gets +50% worker production).

When you get Writing, chop a Library immediately and run two Scientists until you get a Great Scientist. Build an Academy, you have nothing else to lightbulb. An alternative is to lightbulb Mathematics instead of researching it to get to the slingshot faster, but this will hurt your push through Paper, Education and finally Gunpowder.

Time the Oracle with the completion of Code of Laws, chop if necessary.

The result:


Note that Currency can be researched. Yes! Remember I had to go for Math first.

***

Sooner or later, I was ready to build/whip my first Janissaries.



At this point, I didn't even have Metal Casting, so Engineering (and thus Chemistry) is quite far off, guaranteeing that my shiny new Janissaries will last a long time.

So, what do you think?

How many Many GS did you pop? The 1st one would be for an Acadmey Obviously, If you pop a 2nd one you can use it to lightbulb Education for a quicker beeline to gunpowder.

Only one, because I got a Great Prophet next.
But your idea is brilliant..! Now I must remember to build the Oracle in another city to prevent this random Great Prophet crap from happening again.

I think the Currency detour was highly unnecessary. Alphabet -> Literature would've been a better detour to get more scientists.

By the way, I had 1693 gold because the Confucian Shrine let me run 100% (and later 90%) for ages on a profit and I was selling techs.

robo, Mehmed starts w/both prereqs for Pottery. Perhaps a quick hop there to get cottages up faster. I wrote something similar for Napoleon in his Pholk's Corner thread, but the summary:

Pottery>Mining>BW (for whipping/chopping)>Writing>Alphabet ~ this avoids worker techs, but you start with Agr and so can farm--run specialists. Also, w/Writing, build a library and start running scientists.

Get Lit quickly for the GL and two more GSs. You'll have 4 scientists running, and need 3 Great Scientists so build Nat'l Epic!!

Math > Masonry > Constr (for cats) > CoL > Civil Service. You'll only need Paper and Education to get to Gunpowder and you'll want GSs to bulb them.

has anyone looked at getting to Gunpowder through Feudalism/Guilds? This would leave you in a much better Military position throughout, having to go through the bottom of the tech tree. You'd get Monarchy for happy/city growth, Guilds would get you grocers for cash help, etc...

you could, but you can't use GSs to pop any techs, and I *think* the it takes a bit longer turnwise. Then, though, Chemistry is just beyond Gunpowder, so why bother with Janissaries??

W/the top path, you get the econ techs faster, and a longer shelf life for Janissaries. Plus, the AI goes through the bottom most times, so you'll have tradeable techs going up the top.

Jannissaries are just as good as grenadiers vs pregunpowder generally, add to the fact to get chemistry you need gunpowder first. As an expensive tech and with so many less expensive ones that can boost your economy it would be silly to try for chemistry.

Jannissaries utter own pre-gunpoder units...all of them

Hey pholk! In the test game I didn't even have Metal Casting, which is a prerequisite for Machinery, which is a prerequisite for Engineering, which is a prerequisite for Chemistry, so grenadiers are still far-off.

Since your tech path doesn't have Priesthood, you still need to research "Math -> Currency" before Code of Laws is unlocked.

Hey Thyrwyn, I mentioned that it may be better to be in a better economic position with Civil Service and Bureaucracy (Swordsmen are OK defenders for the time being).

Polkhero your method of poping Great People or GS in this case takes too long, It'd be bettrer to use the Philosophy Slingshot and switch to caste system and Pacifism at the same time so you won't have to build the GL becuase you'll be having Great People comming out of your ears.

Check this Thread for the Philo Slingshot http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=191394

Basically, Oracle picks up Codes of Law, Use Library to Pop a GS and Lighbulb Philosophy once you research maths.

and you can Lighbulb CS with a GM once you researched/traded Metal casting, Monarchy, Currency and Codes of law.