ALC Game #9 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Huayna Capac

In the next ALC game, I'll be playing as Huayna Capac, leader of the Incas. This thread is to discuss, before the game, how to best exploit that particular leader's characteristics, which is the main feature and purpose of the ALC series.

(A couple of minor notes: I have still not purchased Warlords, so this game will be played with vanilla Civ IV.)

The fact sheet:

• Traits: Aggressive and Financial
• Starting Techs: Agriculture and Mysticism
• Unique Unit: Quechua (Replaces Warrior; Strength: 2, Movement: 1, Cost: 15, Unique Abilities: +100% versus archery units)

Keep in mind that with this game, I am moving the ALCs up to Monarch level at long last. So part of our discussion must revolve around the differences of that level. I've played a handful of Monarch games and have won a couple of them, but they've been at epic speed. An additional challenge in this game may come from sticking with normal speed, which I've used for all of the ALCs. I should also not that my two Monarch wins were also with Financial leaders (Catherine and Elizabeth). I know that at Monarch level, the barbs are more numerous; the AI starts with an Archer; and the AI has an additional research bonus. If anyone could spell it out more specifically, I'd appreciate it. And then we can discuss how to compensate for each of the level's unique challenges.

Now to Huayna's specifics. First of all, with the Financial trait, this is going to be a Cottage Economy (CE) game. No sense wasting a trait. That also means I probably won't be trying to build the Pyramids. (In fact, one adjustment I'll probably have to make on Monarch is getting over the wonder addiction I had forming once I'd mastered Prince level.) Placing and working cottages in appropriate locations will be a priority, and therefore Pottery will be on our list of desirable early techs. I'll be looking to counter that AI research advantage with Financial's commerce bonus--that means I'll also want to research Currency for Markets and Guilds for Grocers fairly early too, I should think.

The Aggressive trait is getting a bit of a workout lately in the ALCs after a long hiatus. Just as cottages go with Financial, war-mongering goes with Aggressive. However, the additional challenge of Monarch level may make me throttle that down a bit, especially if the AIs get a tech lead and superior units early in the game. On the other hand, it's widely agreed that war strategy is one of the key areas where a human player had a clear advantage over the AI. Thoughts?

Speaking of war-mongering, Huayna has an ideal unique unit (UU) for it: the Quechua. Quechuas strike me as having a much longer shelf life than the unit they replace because of that huge bonus versus archers. They can stand up to the AI's favoured defender AND to the first two types of barbarian attackers. They're also darned cheap. I will also likely be looking to steal Workers from my rivals. Once Axemen and/or mounted units show up, though... yikes.

I've seen many references on the board to doing a "Quechua Rush", but I've never done one myself, since this is my first time playing as Huayna. How many cities should I have before starting this? Should I just spam Quechuas to begin with? How many opponents can I reasonably expect to take out--1? 2?

Regarding the starting techs: with Agriculture, I'll be hoping for a farmable resource near the start. Farms will lend themselves to population growth, and thereby to whipping. However, good farm tiles (grassland, flood plains) also make good cottage tiles; I may convert them once I have Pottery researched.

Mysticism kind of throws a monkey wrench into things, raising more questions than it answers. Should I try to build Stonehenge and later, the Oracle, or is that usual 1-2 wonder combo too ambitious for Monarch? Should I go after one of the early religions?

To keep a better focus than in my last Prince-level game, let's also start talking about potential victory conditions, since we may benefit from having a game-long strategy to follow. What about diplomatic? We haven't done that one yet in an ALC. Conquer for the population base, spread a religion I found, then build the UN later in the game? Or is Huayna better-suited to a different victory condition? He always gives me a run for my money in the space race.

Anyway, we'll take, as usual, a couple of days to prepare for the game here, then I'll start the game thread. Let 'er rip!

Actually, at a higher difficulty more emphasis should be placed on aggression on your part. If you're worried about your neighbours getting a tech lead and superior units, kill or cripple them before they do.

Sisiutil said:

I've seen many references on the board to doing a "Quechua Rush", but I've never done one myself, since this is my first time playing as Huayna. How many cities should I have before starting this?

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I've never done it either, but my impression is that it's mostly about worker stealing, pillaging, and locking down your enemy. The quechua's 100% versus archery plus its implicit Combat I promotion makes it a 4.2 against an archer (or something like that; I'm not sure whether the 100% gets applied as a plus to the quechua or as some kind of minus to the archer). That's nice in the open field, but it's not enough to make it a massacre. More importantly, once you start attacking a city, the archer gets +50% automatically just for standing there, +25% for fortification, +20% or more for cultural defense, +50% (unit ability plus terrain bonus) if it's on a hill, etc. You don't want to be attacking cities with quechuas.

I think the idea is just that if you can get a quechua fortified on a hill or in a forest, the AI is going to have very little chance of taking it out with archers. If you survive one battle and get a promotion, it will probably take 2 or 3 archers attacking at once to dislodge your single quechua. So steal a worker, deny metal and/or horses, and ruin the AI's expansion.

Also note that although you could theoretically mass quechuas and take out a city (similar strategy to a war chariot rush), if he manages to make one spearman or one axeman, you're doomed. A quechua is going to attack a fortified spearman at roughly 2.2 vs. 5 even with no cultural defense. Add in 20% cultural defense and it's 2.2 vs. 5.8. In other words, your quechua is going to die. An axeman isn't even worth calculating. It would be a rout. So, like I said, deny metal and don't attack cities.

To keep a better focus than in my last Prince-level game, let's also start talking about potential victory conditions

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My first thought when I see Financial is always space race. It's also good for cultural. Of those, Aggressive ties in best with space race. You can use your troops to develop a large empire, and then your extra commerce should propel the late game research that you need to launch the spaceship. I've also always felt like space race is the most "complete" victory, in that it usually requires a strong economy, a strong military, good diplomacy and trade, and it takes you fairly deep into the modern era before you can win.

Diplomatic would also be really good, since you still haven't demonstrated a diplomatic win. I think it's a useful exercise to set out for a diplomatic win from turn 0, but that isn't always possible, and this may not be the best game for it. One advantage of the diplomatic win is that it's often compatible with other strategies as a backup plan. Whether you're going for cultural, space race, domination, or conquest, it's always a good idea to maintain good diplomatic relations with the other civilizations and to consider the diplomatic impact of whatever decisions you're making. If you discover in 1850 that you've left the door open for a diplomatic win, it's fairly easy to make a quick beeline to Mass Media and build the UN for the win.

Therefore, my recommendation would be to plan for space race and reevaluate when the time comes to make a decision on Mass Media.

One thing I have noticed on Monarch is not only the barbs are more numerous but the AI has also a lot more units. Or maybe it is just Roosevelt who always builds a huge army. My normal SoD of 5 axemen, 5 swordsmen, 3 precision cats and 3 spearmen would take over 2 cities with ease. In two games I have seen this army decimated by the AI and I had to start all over again (and mind you I was hiding in the jungle when the AI attacked me).

Quecha rush is definitely possible if a capital is close by. If the capital is further away then it gets more and more of a problem and then it is wiser to concentrate on expansion first.

Techwise go for your first religion (with financial is almost a guaranteed religion) and then go to wheel and pottery to spam those cottages. Stonehenge and Oracle are depending on the situation but I have to say it is doable. Financial, religious shrine and some grand prophets and you will be leading in techs without problems. Space race is in the pocket then, but a good diplowin would also be fun.

I have done a few quechua rushes and it is not only about workerstealing and pillaging. In fact it's mainly about killing of a few civs even before reaching axemen. The city raider and cover promotions make quechua's excellent city raiders. Of course you will loose some, but they are darn cheap and quick to build. Since the AI failes to build warriors if they can build archers, they are vulnarable.

One point of advice, you can only keep 1 capital which is in affordable distance from your own capital. The rest should be razed, no matter how good the spot. It will kill you economy otherwise. You need CoL quickly, since you will expand much earlier then the early axe rush. Therefore Oracle imho is much more important then stongehenge. However I have pulled of both stonehenge and oracle on emperor. It very depends on our starting location (forest/hills) and how close your neighbours are. If you have only 1 neighbour you don't need many quechua's and have more hammers available for wonders. The more opponents available to be rushed the less need/hammers to spend on wonders.

Considering his aggresive trait (vanilla) and UU Huayna is excellent for domination or conquest. However, when having a large territory AND being financial, you will have all options open. I would start aggressive though and see which way the game is going. Space race in the end is very much viable.

Oh first tech to research, mining. Bronze isn't even that much needed in this case, but you do need high production early on, even sometimes at the cost of growth. Lets pray for gold...

Edit:btw Diplomacy is sometimes a pain cause you seem to piss of all your remaining neighbours when randomly executing their friends...

In this thread, someone suggests to delay connecting copper to allow building Quechuas even longer, this on Deity level. Sounds like a dangerous strategy, but if it's a life-saver at deity I guess it might just be efficient at Monarch.

As someone suggested, Financial makes it possible to grab an early religion rather safely provided you start near a commerce resource. If so, you could safely bypass Stonehenge and concentrate on the Oracle.

You are able do delay it somewhat since axe barbs don't turn up very soon and you might have covered lots of land so they can't spawn.

With warlords it's more viable, but even a little with vanilla, to use chariots (Warlords means chariots gains bonus) against axemen. Shock chariots or with enough flanking to have a chance against barbs. But I don't think you should purposely delay bronze to use Quechua's longer, since you can use them both. Axemen are superior, but cost way more.

On Deity you need to work resources fast(er) and therefore the need for worker techs becomes greater. Bronze still important though.

He could also look around for a few turns and try and settle his first city closer to somebody to try and reduce the distances between him and his neighbors a bit.

Which Ive done succesfully and unsuccessuflly before.

Quechas are still available after hooking up iron in my vanilla game (no copper). I can choose between building Axe, Swordsman and Quecha at present, having not researched hunting or archery yet and there are no horses around.

What actually makes the quecha option go away? It is ceratainly not iron. I suspect they might be replaced by maces.

UncleJJ said:

Quechas are still available after hooking up iron in my vanilla game (no copper). I can choose between building Axe, Swordsman and Quecha at present, having not researched hunting or archery yet and there are no horses around.

What actually makes the quecha option go away? It is ceratainly not iron. I suspect they might be replaced by maces.

Click to expand...

the quechuas go away if you can build archers and axes, AFAIK
edit : looks like a wrong guess

cabert said:

the quechuas go away if you can build archers and axes, AFAIK

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I tested your theory... and researched hunting and archery. So now I can build Scouts, Axes, Swords, Spears, Achers and Quechuas

You need to revise your theory cabert

UncleJJ said:

I tested your theory... and researched hunting and archery. So now I can build Scouts, Axes, Swords, Spears, Achers and Quechuas

You need to revise your theory cabert

Click to expand...

bad guess
maybe they are obsoleted by mech inf

cabert said:

maybe they are obsoleted by mech inf

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I think they become obsolete if one can build axes and spears and maces, as one can upgrade a quechua to each of these units.

Sisiutil, I have enjoyed the ALC series from the beginning and I credit it more than anything for helping me move up through Prince to Monarch. To me, the biggest difference in Monarch is how quickly the AI techs. Wonder's aren't impossible, but you are unlikely to get them all (or even most of them). If you focus on the ones you really need, you can generally get them (as long as you don't need too many ).

One of the early religions is quite possible on Monarch. Polytheism is more likely than Meditation though. Even then I often don't go for it unless I have a good commerce tile to work in the capital.

Also, I've found that I tend to deemphasize religion a little bit when I'm playing a financial civ. That may not be the best approach, but it tends to distract me from setting up that lovely cottage economy.

Barbs are tougher on Monarch and someone else mentioned that the AI has more units, the AI obviously techs faster as well. Early aggression is important as the only way I've found to outtech the AI on Monarch is to have a bigger empire.

I've generally failed at the Quecha rush (even on Prince) and I think it is because I try it when my first enemy is too far away, particularly on normal speed. Copper seems to come too quickly on Normal for the Quecha's to be a huge help. If the first enemy is close though, I'd say go for it because I'd like to see how the strategy is best used. Otherwise, worker stealing and camping out might be a good use of them. For example, Gandhi can be neutralized almost from the start if you have a Quecha fortified in the woods near his capital.

about quechua rush, moonsinger mentionned a very strange way to do it:

- explore the map with your settler
- settle near an enemy (obviously a good production site is better)
- build barracks
- build quechuas (one medic is needed, the rest can use cover+CR)
- enjoy

You asked about the specific differences between Prince and Monarch. Here they are in an exhaustive list. Since I can't figure out how to make a table in a forum post, the general format is "description: prince -> monarch (delta)." Anything not listed is the same. I don't necessarily claim to know what all of these mean.

• free wins vs. barbs: 1 -> 0 (-1)
• starting loc percent: 50 -> 60 (+10)
• free units: 6 -> 4 (-2)
• unit cost percent: 60 -> 70 (+10)
• research percent: 110 -> 115 (+5)
• distance maintenance percent: 85 -> 90 (+5)
• num cities maintenance percent: 80 -> 85 (+5)
• civic upkeep percent: 90 -> 95 (+5)
• inflation percent: 95 -> 100 (+5)
• no tech trade modifier: 60 -> 50 (-10)
• unowned tiles per game animal: 40 -> 35 (-5)
• unowned tiles per barbarian unit: 50 -> 40 (-10)
• unowned water tiles per barbarian unit: 1800 -> 1600 (-200)
• unowned tiles per barbarian city: 120 -> 110 (-10)
• barbarian creation turns elapsed: 30 -> 25 (-5)
• barbarian city creation turns elapsed: 35 -> 30 (-5)
• barbarian city creation prob: 6 -> 7 (+1)
• animal bonus: -30 -> -20 (+10)
• barbarian bonus: -5 -> 0 (+5)
• ai starting defense units: 0 -> 1 (+1)
• ai starting worker units: 0 -> 1 (+1)
• ai starting explore units: 1 -> 0 (-1)
• barbarian defenders: 2 -> 3 (+1)
• ai work rate modifier: 10 -> 20 (+10)
• ai growth percent: 95 -> 90 (-5)
• ai train percent: 95 -> 90 (-5)
• ai construct percent: 95 -> 90 (-5)
• ai create percent: 95 -> 90 (-5)
• ai civic upkeep percent: 95 -> 90 (-5)
• ai unit cost percent: 95 -> 90 (-5)
• ai unit supply percent: 30 -> 25 (-5)
• ai unit upgrade percent: 25 -> 20 (-5)
• ai inflation percent: 60 -> 50 (-10)
• ai war weariness percent: 60 -> 50 (-10)
• ai per era modifier: -1 -> -2 (-1)
• goodytype goody high gold: 20% -> 10% (-10%)
• goodytype goody barbarians strong 10% -> 20% (+10%)
• ai freetechs: none -> archery

Some highlights/lowlights include more barbarians sooner, costs generally change by 5% (human costs increased, AI costs decreased), slightly worse outcomes from huts, and the AI gets a free worker, archery, and an archer.

Note: Because I'm an idiot, I took these from the Warlords XML files, so there's a slim chance that there are some small variations here from what you'll see in Classic. I suspect that the only differences -- if there are any at all -- are some settings that are new to Warlords and that don't apply in Classic.

Dr Elmer Jiggle said:

You asked about the specific differences between Prince and Monarch. Here they are in an exhaustive list. Since I can't figure out how to make a table in a forum post, the general format is "description: prince -> monarch (delta)." Anything not listed is the same. I don't necessarily claim to know what all of these mean.


Some highlights/lowlights include more barbarians sooner, costs generally change by 5% (human costs increased, AI costs decreased), slightly worse outcomes from huts, and the AI gets a free worker, archery, and an archer.

Note: Because I'm an idiot, I took these from the Warlords XML files, so there's a slim chance that there are some small variations here from what you'll see in Classic. I suspect that the only differences -- if there are any at all -- are some settings that are new to Warlords and that don't apply in Classic.

Click to expand...

I won't say i did see immediately that these came from warlords, but just BIG differences between those values and the vanilla ones are the unowned tiles per barbarian. It's much more in vanilla (I'm at work right now, and the numbers are home, so cannot say exactly).

However, from the list you get exactly the point :
- more barbs, less bonus vs barbs
- more barb cities, better defense in barb cities
- one less warrior for AIs, one more archer (and guess what, your UU has a bonus vs archer )
- one more worker for AIs (= one more for you if you steal it!) all the more reason to settle right next to an enemy.

cabert said:

about quechua rush, moonsinger mentionned a very strange way to do it:
- explore the map with your settler
- settle near an enemy (obviously a good production site is better)
- build barracks
- build quechuas (one medic is needed, the rest can use cover+CR)
- enjoy

Click to expand...

Hmm..That definitely deals with the problems of a Quechua rush when you start a long way from another civ. Plus having essentially two capitals early might offset the loss from delaying founding the first city...

Seems a little extreme though.

FoolontheHill said:

Hmm..That definitely deals with the problems of a Quechua rush when you start a long way from another civ. Plus having essentially two capitals early might offset the loss from delaying founding the first city...

Seems a little extreme though.

Click to expand...

maybe a test game before doing it in an ALC?
Moonsinger said she would accept 10+ turns of "moving around the settler" for this.
It was in a thread about how many turns you would lose before settling. At first I thought she was joking!

About this strat: I think she plays mostly on Marathon, that's why it's easier to get away with it. 10 turns there is not much, really. Don't know how it scales on Normal speed though. If the map is small enough it might be possible to pull it off though.