Migration and Immigration

ProfessorK

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I'm fairly new to Civ4 and to the forum, so pardon me if this isn't a new idea. But something which is a powerful element in civilizations and history which I haven't seen represented in the game are the forces of mass migrations and immigration. These forces seem to particularly manefest themselves when there is overcrowding and a lack of resources in one area and open spaces and unworked resources in another area. There is, I think the natural human tendency for substancial population movement under such circumstances. The settling of the American West is a classic example.

Dealing with migration first, because it would be less complicated, I was mulling around the idea of having a button, not unlike the Draft button, available to leaders to ease overpopulation when there are new cities with unworked resources available for a portion of the overcrowded population to migrate to. It would have to be attached to some civic or the player would have to have achieved that civic to enable "Migration". Also, some limiters would have to be placed on it, so it wouldn't be abused. Maybe, for instance, it could be tied the the Nationalism civic and be available once per five turns, or something of that nature. In terms of game mechanics, 1 point of population would disappear from the overcrowded city and reappear on the new city, where it could be placed to work resources on a specific tile. There could also a monetary penalty involved to discourage its abuse.

Immigration would be more tricky as it is a much more complicated and hot button topic. Mostly it is more tricky because it occurs between two civs. In this case it makes sense that it could be included on the trade menu. The countries would have to have open borders, of course. But it could be worth while if one civ was experiencing over crowding and the other was trying to populate and develop a new area in its civ. It would be possible to trade techs or resources or diplomacy for immigrants. The effects of the immigration could be more tricky. It would relieve the "Old Country" of overcrowding, but could also lower there culture, as they would be loosing a portion of their culture. On the other hand, immigration could be seen as a way to spreading one's culture, creating more diversity. That is certainly what is happening in this country, like it or not. Immigration has been one of the central driving forces and defining forces of our culture and civilization. The effects on the Old Country and new Host Country could vary so much depending on one's views of immigration. That is what makes it tricky. Not only one country but two countries would be affected.

I would be interested in getting some of your thoughts on these two ideas and how they might be developed in the game. They seem like interesting features which are oversites in the game. Perhaps they have been considered and rejected for various reasons. I would be interested to know if this is true and why.
 
I like the idea of migration. To be more accurate to historical development, I would say that at first it's done by individuals with no control by the player. After a certain point (Industrial/Modern Era?) you would be able to move people around yourself - with a temporary unhappiness penalty (to avoid possible micromanagement exploits) unless you've moved them from an overcrowded city to one with space.

But I can't see how emigration/immigration could be made to work.
 
Sharpe's Civ said:
I like the idea of migration. To be more accurate to historical development, I would say that at first it's done by individuals with no control by the player. After a certain point (Industrial/Modern Era?) you would be able to move people around yourself - with a temporary unhappiness penalty (to avoid possible micromanagement exploits) unless you've moved them from an overcrowded city to one with space.

But I can't see how emigration/immigration could be made to work.

Countries with a strong and attractive culture and a flourishing economy alwasy attract lots of immigrants. Of course, that sometimes leads to assimilation problems and the emergence of nativism, so that might be included as well - mass immigration means lots of foreign-born labour but some unhappiness for a longer or shorter period of time.

Öjevind
 
Öjevind Lång said:
Countries with a strong and attractive culture and a flourishing economy alwasy attract lots of immigrants. Of course, that sometimes leads to assimilation problems and the emergence of nativism, so that might be included as well - mass immigration means lots of foreign-born labour but some unhappiness for a longer or shorter period of time.

Öjevind

That's why I think it would be unworkable. It would be too complex to factor in all the different variables.
 
Very interesting topic. I think somebody tried to implement sth like this in games, it was called culture over trade routes, as i remember.

You can try to merge this with Revolution and get what you want. However, I think somebody from Firaxis could think wheter isnt it worth to be included in Civ 5.
 
and perhaps a lot of immigration could cuase some unhappiness in the nationals and in some cases then cause people to want a nationalism(nationalism being modded to have less or no immigration)and then in some cases right wing groups form and it could work like a civil war, but thats a bit off topic
 
Immigration is a complex concept and maybe too complex to be included in the game, but it is interesting to get views on it.

I would think that it would be triggered by a combination of unhappiness in one country and a positive open civilization in an ajoining country. It could also be triggered by combinations of civics in adjoining civs where there is more personal freedom available in one than another civ. Some of these cominbations might be:

Encouraging Immigration in adjoining Civs

Police State -- Representation
Police State -- Universal Sufferage
Vassalage -- Free Speech
Serfdom -- Emancipation
State Property -- Free Market
Theocracy (with State Religion) -- Free Religion

Perhaps it would be better if two of these combinations had to be in place to trigger immigration.

To control immigration if a civ didn't want immigrants or if immigration was begining to overwhelm them could be achieved by closing one's borders or by adopting Nationhood (ie. a strong sense of Nationalism that looks askew at "forgieners").

Something to consider is that it is very tempting when going to war to adopt Vassalage and Theocracy to pump up the promotions on newly created units. If you had a neighboring country that had Free Religion and Free Speech when you did this, you would start loosing population. This could have interesting consequences. It might work against warmongering civs who were preparing for war. But it would also work against civs who were faced with emminent invasion and were trying to build a strong military to repulse the invasion, which wouldn't see right. But then, again, to prevent this scenario all one would have to do is close one's borders, which a lot of persons do before a war, anyway, certainly against the threatening nation or target nation, but also with other neighboring civs to prevent a two or three front war from happening. At any rate, it would bring a larger impact of diplomacy into the game.

What do you think?
 
ProfessorK said:
Something to consider is that it is very tempting when going to war to adopt Vassalage and Theocracy to pump up the promotions on newly created units. If you had a neighboring country that had Free Religion and Free Speech when you did this, you would start loosing population. This could have interesting consequences. It might work against warmongering civs who were preparing for war.

But this would then ruin war in the game and IMO that is one of the most fun aspects, for a warmongerer like me anyway:)
 
Believe me I like a good war myself. This wouldn't ruin making war in the game. The simple fix would be to close your border with the country with Free Religion and Free Speech until the build up to the war and the war are over. If you are that dependant on the bordering civ for trade income that this would not allow you to go to war, their are other solutions and trade offs: Adopt only Theocracy or Vassalage (with barracks you still get good promotions); switch to Mercantilism from Free Trade so you can generate income without foreign trade routes; keep borders open with other civs and exploit and develop them. My point is that it wouldn't ruin warfare, it would just make going to war something that you might have to plan more carefully. It is natural and historically accurate for a portion of a population to want to get out of a country that is about to go to war. These combinations of civs not only reflect a country preparing and waging war, but countries where there is a lack of personal freedom of speech and religion and another option available which allows for such freedoms.
 
A very interesting idea which I'd love to see implemented. I think this could be a very major, a very important addition to the game - it would undoubtedly change game strategy immensely. I think the way you propose to implement it is excellent - I'd love to see that modded in or included in future expansion packs or sequels. Kudos for the great idea! :goodjob:
 
A while back I wrote a mini treatise on immigration. It is, to be, the biggest thing lacking in civilization so far.

A simple version could be done. If a city has an unhappy citizen, there is a chance on every turn that he emigrates. If he does, the game pops up an AI-controlled "Immigrant unit" which makes for greener pastures. If the problem in the home city is overcrowding, the Immigrant goes to a smaller city. If it's war weariness, he goes to another civ.

My version is incredibly more detailed and adds what I feel is unprecedented depth to the game. Here it goes:


For the purposes of this discussion, I will refer to those little guys in every city that represent 1 unit of population (x-thousand people) that we've come to know and love over the years, as "Citizens" (capital C, as opposed to the actual "small-c" citizens that these guys represent). In various forms, in past games each of these Citizens has had a nationality, and recently this concept became a little more developed. The population of a conquered city would maintain it's old nationality for a period of time and be more likely to revolt, but that was pretty much it.

I am proposing that in the next iteration of the game, each citizen not start with a nationality but rather an "ethnicity" that corresponds to the Civilization to which they belong. As we know, as cities grow, it's Citizens become more likely to be unhappy, due to overcrowding or other factors. It is my suggestion that when a Citizen has been unhappy for a given period of time (the precise period I can't say for sure, but maybe a couple turns, perhaps more), there arises a chance (also unknown at the point, to be tested for best balance of course) that this Citizen will decide to leave the city and emigrate to another. If successful, an "Immigrant" unit controlled by AI will appear in the city. It has the same characteristics of a settler but is more likely to simply move to a city whose conditions are more favorable for that particular group of people. For example, if the Citizen left due to unhappiness caused by overcrowding, it will move to a city of lower population. Similarly, pollution/unhealthiness or other matters can be the effect at play here.

Those are the basics of "immigration" though for now we have only discussed intra-civilization migration of population which might not technically be called "immigration" but.. that's what I'm calling it. J It never made much sense to me that a city would have an unhappy populace that would just sit there. Unhappy Citizens will not automatically pack up and move to another city (this would defeat the purpose of creating habitable cities)

Now for another new element that will soon relate to all this, the "Civilization Propaganda/Attitude" meters.

In past games we know that AI civs have certain attitudes toward each other and to human-controlled civilizations. These effect how diplomacy, trade, etc goes between civilizations. But never did we need to know how the human civ felt about the AI civs. After all, we are the ones playing the game, we know how we feel about them!

But now I am proposing the inclusion of two related "meters" that would affect these new aspects of gameplay (and some already existing ones). First is the "propaganda slider." This would be a sliding scale that a Civilization's leader sets for each civilization it comes in contact with. It represents a government's ability to shape public opinion about the rest of the world's civilizations. We know how it works in the modern world and I certainly don't doubt that it was used to great effect to sway a nation's populace in favor of a friend or against an enemy in the ancient world. The slider could be set similar to the existing naming methods of AI attitude, ranging from "furious" to "annoyed", "cautious", "pleased" and "friendly." In correspondence with this meter is another meter which measures the citizenry's *actual* opinion of the opposing civilization. At first contact, the populace of a civ will react largely in tune with the "official" position of the government. After all, what do the people really have to go by (especially in ancient times) other than what the government says? The opinion of the population changes both as events occur and the government changes its stance. For example if trade routes are established with the other civ or if that civ has a strong culture, popular opinion will edge slightly upward. If opposing military units enter the borders, opinion may go down. A declaration of war by a foreign power, or worse, a sneak attack, generates real dislike among the homeland population. Early in the game, propaganda will have a larger effect, as the government is the main source of information. If an enemy power declares war, and the weakened civilization sues for peace., the citizens will still think negatively about the aggressor for a while, even if the fearful government wants to establish friendly relations. Conversely, actions that may seem egregious to the people can be mitigated by positive propaganda by the government. Ultimately this allows a civ to lessen the ill-effects of war with an opposing civilization if the population has developed a strong dislike/mistrust of said nation. The other side of this is, of course, that if the citizens like another civilization due to it's culture and trade establishments, there will be a heavy price to pay in unhappiness if a war-mongering ruler decides to start a war with them. Of course you can try to play a neutral role as well.

The dynamics of this system could become even more…err.. dynamic… as you come in contact with more civilizations. If your people are neutral to the Aztecs but like the Romans, and the Aztecs then declare war on the Romans, your people will then start to dislike the Aztecs. The populace will also begin to dislike a civilization in response to reports of “bad” behavior such as attacking peaceful units, razing cities, etc. The dynamics also change as your civilization advances and more people-friendly civics come into play. The combination of advances such as Education, Printing Press, etc, (and the improvements that go with them) and a freer nation will mean that your government's propaganda tactics will have a somewhat lesser effect on popular opinion. However if you employ more totalitarian civics (with ostensibly state-controlled media, etc,) your control over opinion will be much greater.

With the development of a particular advance (right now I'm guessing Monarchy due to "loyalty to the king" factors), each Citizen of that civ will be assigned his Nationality as an "official" Citizen of that particular civ. Now let's shift back to immigration.

Civilizations with more people-friendly civics and higher ratings of culture, particularly as the game progresses, will become more attractive to unhappy Citizens. If another civ offers a better culture and more freedom than a Citizen's current nation, he may decide to emigrate to that civilization. If technology allows, an AI-controlled "boat" unit might appear automatically near the city to transport the new "Immigrant" unit to the city of his choice if that would be faster. This unit would not be a military craft and simply represents any old collection of civilian craft that could transport a bunch of immigrants. Perhaps, for the sake of realism, immigration by boat would not take place until later in the game to more accurately reflect history.

Now let's suppose you are the English. You have a wonderful civilization with a great culture, and suddenly, a French Immigrant unit appears next to your city. At this point you'll get a message, "Sir, French immigrants have arrived near Nottingham. They seek [insert reason for emigration]. Shall we accept them?" And in typical Civ fashion the possible responses will be something like,

"Yes! Give us your tired, your poor…."
"Their stench would foul up the Nottingham air. Send them away!"

Then, more dynamics. I'm all about dynamics. Whether you accept them or not, the Immigrant Citizen's ethnicity remains French. If you accept them, their ethnicity stays French, but over time they may change and become English by Nationality. If you accept an ethnically French Citizen into your city, the ethnically English Citizens of Nottingham will suffer a minor loss of happiness, reflecting the world’s history of negative reaction to outsiders. The unhappiness effect will be greater if the populace’s Attitude toward the French is more neutral than positive, and much greater if the Attitude is negative, for obvious reasons. Over several turns this effect will wear off as the immigrants get assimilated and/or if they switch to English citizens.

A final note on in-depth immigration: A civilization with totalitarian civics will have controls over its emigration. If you have set up a Communist-type regime (or other strong-armed civics types), not only will the game calculate whether or not an unhappy Citizen wants to immigrate on a given turn, but also calculate, based on the level of control your government has in place, whether or not the Citizen is successful. Instead of "immigrants" the game might call them "Defectors" for added flavor You'll get messages saying "Our police caught some citizens in [City] trying to defect to India." Perhaps in cases of severe state rule, the defectors may even be killed by your state police!

And finally, on ethnicity. Ethnicity will come into play in times of war. If you have a high population of a certain ethnic group in your civilization, you will need to be wary of them because they may become unhappy if you engage in war with that civilization. The United States’ entry into WWI was not a unanimous decision on the part of Congress, and many of the dissenting votes came from heavily German districts. (A possible exception to this is if the immigrants left their homeland due to war weariness.) They might defect back to that country or worse, spread unrest and revolt in their new cities. They will also contribute to the national Attitude of your civ once they become citizens. Therefore if you have 20% of people of American heritage in your civilization and the American civilization is attacked by another civ, they may become very negative to that civ despite the fact that you may be friendly with them.

I would also suggest that during warfare and an attack on a city, an equivalent to the "immigrant" unit called the "Refugee" be established. During bombardment or siege of a city, there is always a chance that the population goes down to represent collateral damage. I suggest that we now do three queries with each attack: 1.) Does this attack threaten the lives of civilians? (yes/no) 2.) Determine at quasi-random one of three outcomes: a.) citizens stay and survive; b.) citizens are killed c.) citizens flee the city and become refugees. The refugee unit would behave similarly to the immigrant unit, except it's pathing would be simply to find the nearest safe city in any civ that their home country is not at war with. Enemy units could kill the refugee unit but at great expense to their reputation.

Well, there it is. There is, I feel, a lot of depth here. Never before has Civ given any sort of depth to its Citizens before. They have always been just icons and I found it hard to relate to them. This is an empire game and by no means am I trying to micro it down to something like The Sims. But controlling the masses and their attitudes is a huge part of managing an empire and with these ideas I am providing a model for this aspect of empire building that I think makes the game a lot more interesting, especially in the later stages which people have had problems with. Now, can it be done? It requires quite a commitment on the part of the makers of the game - to be able to accurately model events and how each Citizen should react to them. In many ways I have only scratched the surface of ways Citizens can behave and respond to world events, but I'm also willing to hear arguments that maybe I've gone overboard and this kind of depth is unnecessary or just not feasible. I certainly hope not because I'd love to see it make an appearance. Certainly a lot of testing would need to be done to ensure that we have balance, and that the effects of immigration are present but not overwhelming. I don't know that I want hordes of nationless immigration units going from city to city, civ to civ all the time. At the same time it shouldn't just be some afterthought where you automatically take in any immigrants you can since they're basically free pop increases and there are so few of them that the negatives to it never really add up to even a remote threat.
 
interesting ideas here.
Just a few more suggestions.

Unhappiness is certainly a factor. But I would had starvation into the migration causing factors.
This way, for each turn, in each city, migration would be checked:
- for each unhappy
- for each pair of food missing.

Let's say you have 1 unhappy and 4 food deficit, that would be 3 chances to lose a pop point = 1 migrant.
I think the migration should follow either cultural dominance or one of the trade routes.

About migration control, police state could prevent migration (say 50% less chance), while emancipation could appeal foreign migrants. Slavery should repel the migrants.
With theocracy or vassalage, you could refuse immigrants.


I didn't think hard about it, but IMHO there is some potential to this idea.
 
I like the idea to tie it to food shortages as well. Very nice. I'd just add it to the possible reasons for a Citizen to leave, though. Under regular civics, say a 1-in-10 chance that any unhappy or starving citizen will leave the city. Police state decreases that chance to 1 in 20, and/or maybe or tie the chance of getting caught to the number of military units stationed in the city.

I think you should be able to refuse immigrants regardless of the civic. Even "free" countries today decide whether to acept or turn away an immigrant.

I'd also assign religion to the immigrants as well. If an immigrant is generated in a city, it has a 50% chance of inheriting any religion currently in that city. When the immigrant moves to another city, it spreads that religion to it, if it wasn't already present.
 
I like the idea to tie it to food shortages as well. Very nice. I'd just add it to the possible reasons for a Citizen to leave, though. Under regular civics, say a 1-in-10 chance that any unhappy or starving citizen will leave the city. Police state decreases that chance to 1 in 20, and/or maybe or tie the chance of getting caught to the number of military units stationed in the city.

linking to the number of military units is a good point


I think you should be able to refuse immigrants regardless of the civic. Even "free" countries today decide whether to acept or turn away an immigrant.

Maybe those "free" countries aren't as free as they claim :rolleyes: ?
If people are free to come and go, I don't see how you could stop them immigrating.

I'd also assign religion to the immigrants as well. If an immigrant is generated in a city, it has a 50% chance of inheriting any religion currently in that city. When the immigrant moves to another city, it spreads that religion to it, if it wasn't already present.
good idea, and you should be aware of their faith before letting them in or not (if you're allowed to forbid them to immigrate)
 
Maybe those "free" countries aren't as free as they claim :rolleyes: ?
If people are free to come and go, I don't see how you could stop them immigrating.

Hey, you're right about that. How about upon arriving the game just rolls dice to determine whether they arrive through regular (legal) means, and therefore the game asks youif you'd like to take them in, or whether they sneak in somehow illegally, and become part of your city, no questions asked.

I'd also add tags to a bunch of the civics (assuming all return for this potential game). Free religion, Emancipation, Free Speech, Universal Suffrage, Representation create a greater liklihood that an immigrant will move to that country. The game already models citizens becoming unhappy if another civilization has adopted some of those. I think these effects could be stronger, and be the reason for emigration. Despotism, Police State, Slavery, etc would show various increased liklihood of catching immigrants trying to leave the country and forcing them to stay.
 
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