Syria: fate of Iraq silences democracy activists "we do not want to be like Iraq."

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Uiler

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Hey, remember guys the great "bring democracy to the Middle East" project? Seems like the aftermath of the Iraq war has actually caused a *decline* in support for democracy, at least in Syria.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/25/AR2006102501893.html

DAMASCUS, Syria -- Horror at the bloodshed accompanying the U.S. effort to bring democracy to Iraq has accomplished what human rights activists, analysts and others say Syrian President Bashar al-Assad had been unable to do by himself: silence public demands for democratic reforms here.

The idea of the government as a bulwark of stability and security has long been the watchword of Syrian bureaucrats and village elders. But since Iraq's descent into sectarian and ethnic war -- and after Israel's war with Hezbollah in Lebanon, on the other side of Syria -- even Syrian activists concede that the country's feeble rights movement is moribund.

Advocates of democracy are equated now with supporters of America, even "traitors," said Maan Abdul Salam, 36, a Damascus publisher who has coordinated conferences on women's rights and similar topics.

"Now, talking about democracy and freedom has become very difficult and sensitive," Salam said. "The people are not believing these thoughts anymore. When the U.S. came to Iraq, it came in the name of democracy and freedom. But all we see are bodies, bodies, bodies."

Ordinary people in Syria are hunkering down, and probably rightly so, said Omar Amiralay, a well-known Syrian filmmaker whose documentaries are quietly critical of Assad's one-family rule.

"If democracy brings such chaos in the region, and especially the destruction of society, as it did in Iraq and in Lebanon, it's absolutely normal, and I think it's absolutely a wise position from the people to be afraid to imagine how it would be in Syria," Amiralay said. "I think that people at the end said, 'Well, it is better to keep this government. We know them, and we don't want to go to this civil war, and to live this apocalyptic image of change, with civil war and sectarianism and blood.' "

In 2003, a few people in Damascus were bold enough to raise their glasses in cafes to toast the American tanks then rolling into Baghdad to overthrow Saddam Hussein. They were dreaming of the changes that might happen next here, in the only remaining government led by the Baath Party, a prominent writer in the capital said, speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of being jailed a second time.

"The Americans came to Iraq to make it an example to the other countries to ask for change," the writer said. "But what happened was the opposite. Now everyone is saying we do not want to be like Iraq."
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Amiralay's prominence has helped him cope. Another critic, the once-outspoken writer, said he has opted to watch his words more carefully. And Salam, the publisher and conference organizer, voted with his feet, moving to Canada just after his interview in Damascus.

Before he left, Salam spoke darkly of the prospects for the Middle East. Iraq was in ruins, he said. Lebanon was in peril of civil war. In Syria, Assad would either stay in power or destroy the country first if he was forced out.

In Egypt, Yemen and Libya, strongmen were preparing their sons to succeed them, while the United States and other avowed promoters of democracy in the Middle East looked the other way. "I don't see the situation getting better," Salam said. "Young people are trying to leave Syria -- to Canada, to Europe, to any place."
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"We are talking and enjoying ourselves," Yousif said, waving the nozzle of the traditional water pipe he and his friend were using to smoke flavored tobacco. "This is our democracy. This is our freedom."
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I guess instead of dying in the streets in civil war.

Note these are people who are actually democracy/freedom activists and some of whom have actually gone to jail for their "crimes".

So, is there *anything* that can be salvaged from the Iraq debacle? If failing to achieve your goal entirely can be considered failure what do you consider achieving the exact *opposite* of your goal? Wow I never seen such a farce before. By sheer incompetence in Iraq you have not only managed to *not* advance the cause of democracy but have actually set it back god knows how many decades! Now in the Middle East democracy is associated with being an American lackey and traitor to your country and the results of democracy are seen to be not "freedom" but civil war and devastation. I mean everytime I read a story about Iraq the thing that always stands out is the sheer incompetence. Lesson to be learnt from all this: before you start on a grand scheme to destory and rebuild the ME in your image, at least have a *plan* before you go it. And if people in charge turn out to be hopelessly incompetent, fire them. And read at least a basic history of the region before you even start the planning. No need to thank me for the tips.
 
Oh yeah, and before people go, "At least most of the dictatorships are pro-American" there probably will still be opposition. But since democracy has now been thoroughly discredited, joining Communism, and secular Arab nationalism in the line of ideologies that have left the ME disillusioned, there is only one choice left, the strongest one already in Arab countries, in fact. What do I speak of, but of course, Islamic fundamentalism. More and more people unhappy with their government but disillusioned with all the secular alternatives, including now democracy will probably start to believe "Islam is the answer". When the dictatorships finally fall (and they will eventually) it will not be at the hands of democratic groups but at the hands of fundamentalist Islamic militants.
 
I understand these peoples point of view but they are missing the point that the US admin have nothing but contempt for democracy. The 'democracy' they imposed on Iraq was just a PR exercise, sheep's clothing in which to hide their wolfish hunt for oil domination. It is not wise to equate democracy with foreign invasion. Although a domestically generated democracy in Syria would probably be no protection from the US anymore than Iran's domestically generated democracy protected Iran from the US or for that matter Palestine or Lebanon.
 
Meh, democracy in syria (and other arab countries), will mean war with Israel. :lol:
 
nivi said:
Meh, democracy in syria (and other arab countries), will mean war with Israel. :lol:
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The people might call for it, but any leader foolish enough to try wouldn't be leader for long.
 
nivi said:
Meh, democracy in syria (and other arab countries), will mean war with Israel. :lol:
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:confused: how do you figure?
 
When the U.S. came to Iraq, it came in the name of democracy and freedom. But all we see are bodies, bodies, bodies."
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How long have we been there? A few years? Iraq has been governed by dictators, kings, tyrants, and religious rulers since the days of Babylon. How is the government that has been ingrained in a people over the course of thousands of years supposed to be rooted out in a fraction of that time?

Iraq is a newly-planted tree. We must be patient with it, or it won't grow into a nation of freedom. Rushing the democratic process will only hurt Iraq.
 
well well well, carlos marks this one down as 'exactly as I predicted and was ridiculed for my vertain conservative Americans'.

5-0 for me, so far..... pity! I'd prefer to be right when I am optimistic.
 
nivi said:
Meh, democracy in syria (and other arab countries), will mean war with Israel. :lol:
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I thought 2 democratic countries cannot go to war with eachother?
 
Neomega said:
Yeah... I will never forgive the Republicans for this. Never.
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You do realize that the majority of Democrats in the Senate voted for the Iraq War Resolution, and some fourty-percent of House Democrats did, as well?

29 Senate Democrats vs 21 Senate Democrats
81 House Democrats vs 126 House Democrats
 
Who cares really? They obviously never sincerely wanted democracy in the first place, and if they did they would not be basing it off of Iraq. The reason Iraq has failed is not because democracy is a failure, it is because the MIDDLE EAST is a failure.

They are blind to their own failures and seek to blame everything on the West. They sit there and deny their women the right to do anything, give men the power to abuse their families, and they sit there and criticize the U.S. for attempting to bring democracy and freedom to a backwards country? They are unwilling to accept democracy because they do not want to give up their authoritarian power, plain and simple. Democracy is a threat to the fanatical theocracies that reign in the Middle East.
 
Well, there is little doubt that democracy works. The most prosperous nations on this planet are democracies. The fact is that, ironically, the Arabs have not the backbone to die for the rights and freedom of their own people, but somehow can muster up the balls to strap a bomb to themselves and kill innocent civilians in some bus or marketplace, all in the name of Allah.

Sounds like trading a lot of freedom for a bit of safety, to me.

"I'm proud to be an American
where at least I know I'm free,
And I won't forget the men who died
who gave that right to me,"

That is why nationalism still has a place in this world and why I am proud of it.
 
John HSOG said:
Well, there is little doubt that democracy works. The most prosperous nations on this planet are democracies.
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The most prosperous nations on the planet also have a history of empire, colonialism and generally exploiting the people of the developing world.

John HSOG said:
The fact is that, ironically, the Arabs have not the backbone to die for the rights and freedom of their own people, but somehow can muster up the balls to strap a bomb to themselves and kill innocent civilians in some bus or marketplace, all in the name of Allah.
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How dare you? How dare you, you ignorant fool? Arabs have tried for democracy, for secular nationalism in the past. Case in point: Iran, 1954. A popular revolution (with no hint of Islamic fundamentalism) had overthown the brutal Shah (ally of the West). A democratic government was elected, which then nationalised the oil industry. This upset the British and American companies, who petitioned the US government to overthrow the democratic government of Iran, which the CIA duly did.

The Sha was put back in power, and continued his brutal dominance of Iran. He was overthrown again, but this time it was by Islamic fundamentalism. Iran tried so hard for democracy, but we took it away from them. We drove them to Islam. Learn some history before making such stupid, racist statements like that.

Moderator Action: Your message could have made the same point without the personal attacks. Warned
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
One problem with your theorey zulu...


Iran isn't an arab country.


I thought 2 democratic countries cannot go to war with eachother?
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How long has there been democracy? Not nearly enough for someone to truly determine that 2 democracies can't go to war.


The people might call for it, but any leader foolish enough to try wouldn't be leader for long.
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Thats the whole point of democracy, unlike dictatorships, the people get what they want (and deserve).

how do you figure?
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Lots of passimsm, and some realism.
 
Iran isn't an arab country.
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What is it then, medean? I think the debaters here need to sort out a definition of "arab", because I can see Iran being an arab country for a value of arab that unifies much of the middle east.
 
Erik Mesoy said:
What is it then, medean? I think the debaters here need to sort out a definition of "arab", because I can see Iran being an arab country for a value of arab that unifies much of the middle east.
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I don't know what the exact definition for arab is, but Iran doesn't fit in that definiton.
 
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