ALC Game 10 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Asoka

In the next ALC game, I'll be playing as Asoka, leader of India. This thread is to discuss, before the game, how to best exploit that particular leader's characteristics, which is the main feature and purpose of the ALC series.

Note: this will be the first ALC played with the Warlords expansion pack, complete with the just-released patch and its rule changes and improved AI.

The fact sheet:

• Traits: Organized and Spiritual
• Starting Techs: Mysticism and Mining
• Unique Unit: Fast Worker (Replaces Worker; Strength: 0, Movement: 3, Cost: 60)
• Unique Building: Masoleum (Replaces Jail; Cost: 120; Unique abilities: +2 happiness)

There's a certain irony here. Asoka is renowned as a warrior who swore off war once he converted to Buddhism. But that Organized trait, to me, encourages early warring to take advantage of its main feature: cheap courthouses to lessen the expense of early empire-building. In addition, the new unique building feature has given India the Masoleum, which really requires you to be warring in the late game to take full advantage of it, since it still retains the generic jail's -25% war weariness. With a +2 happiness bonus on top of that, India strikes me as the civ in the best position to pursue late game warring.

On top of all that, I've come to think of Spiritual as a warmonger's trait as well, since it allows you to quickly switch, with no anarchy penalty, from peacetime to wartime civics and back again. This is usually the only reason I will change to a "downlevel" civic, if you will. Since Asoka is not financial, being able to quickly switch without penalty to more lucrative civics as soon as they're available (Bureaucracy, Free Market, State Property) is also appealing.

In other words, Asoka strikes me as a warmonger's dream leader in many repects. Or maybe I'm just looking for any excuse to pound on my neighbours. Whatever. In any case, I anticipate taking names and kicking butt. I mean, the name of the game is now Warlords, after all, and I'm interested in trying out those new game elements like Trebuchets and Great Generals. Woo hoo!

The only thing India lacks in the warmongering department is a powerful unique unit. However, you can't traipse around these boards without stumbling upon praise for the Fast Worker. They have only two differences from their generic counterparts: first, they have three moves instead of two; second, they are available from day one and never become obsolete--the only unit in the game of which that's true, as far as I can tell, aside from Settlers and Workboats, which are not nearly as multi-purpose as Workers. The Fast Worker can move onto a forest or hill tile and start work on it on the same turn; they can evade barbarians and enemy units with ease; and they can just get places faster, even without roads. Does anyone think this means you can make do with fewer Workers, however? In my experience, for the first 2/3 of the game, you can never have enough Workers. Another cool thing about this UU is that when you capture a generic Worker, they become a Fast Worker! "Oh, I'm working for India now! Suddenly my meager frame is imbued with the speed of a gazelle! Feets, do your stuff!"

Asoka starts with Mysticism and Mining, a great combination of opening techs in many respects--I suspect these have a lot to do with his counterpart Gandhi's popularity, along with that now-gone vanilla Industrious trait. We can pursue an early religion without having to scramble to get Bronze Working to defend ourselves afterwards. I'm thinking of going for Hinduism--the AI usually goes for the slightly-cheaper Buddhism, Polytheism is a pre-requisite for Literature and the Great Library, and besides, shouldn't India be Hindu? We could also get a jump on building Stonehenge, although it may be somewhat redundant if we snag that early religion. The Great Prophet points are very handy, though.

If we get that early religion and spread it--often via the sharp end of a pointy stick--would the University of Sankore be a worthwhile wonder to pursue? I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's recommendations surrounding the unique Warlords game elements.

I know the AI has been improved in the patch and I'm looking forward to that. I have not yet decided upon the level for this match--some people are even recommending dropping all the way to Noble! I will play a game or two over the next few days on Monarch level and see just how improved the AI is and contemplate dropping from Monarch to Prince for this game. Frankly, I'm reluctant to drop a level--surely the group mind can overcome the smarter AI, and even a defeat would be instructive. I look forward to opinions on this as well.

The game will not really get under way for a few days, as I need to get used to Warlords (and I'm just finishing the vanilla Rome game I'm chronicling in Stories and Tales right now). But I can at least post the starting position soon since there's always considerable debate about that. Look for it this weekend.

Awesome. Finally a Warlords ALC!

If you found an early reiigion, I've found the university to be a worthwhile pursuit. Even better than the minaret. I don't usually prioritize divine right so I'm not usually the one to build the minaret. The university, however, is available with paper (?), I think, which is a key tech in any game because of liberalism.

Those fast workers are clutch for chopping forest for early wonders.

in this first Warlords ALC, will you be doing any extra explaining/translating for those of us who do not play Warlords, or should i find a good reference manual somewhere?

A few random thoughts:

1. If you're going to pursue religion, shouldn't Asoka be Buddhist as you pointed out in the introduction?
   Admittedly, Hinduism is normally an easier grab on Monarch than Buddhism unless you get a 3C tile to work from the start or luck out with the non-mysticism civs.
2. If going for Sankore, consider pairing it with the Spiral Minaret as aelf did to great effect in EMC2.
3. You need just as many fast workers as you do normal workers, since it still takes them the same number of turns to actually build improvements (I wish they'd change it so worker movement points contributed to build speed).
4. As far as I can tell (looking at the readme), the main AI improvements are in city placement and terrain development. It'll still suck at war which is where it's always been worst, so stick with Monarch initially. Better a tough, challenging game than a cakewalk.
5. Unless they've changed anything about resource distribution in the new patch, you're much more likely to have horses or iron than you are bronze, so consider making AH an early research priority - with the attack bonus against axes, chariots are now the anti-barb unit of choice.

patagonia said:

A few random thoughts:

1. If you're going to pursue religion, shouldn't Asoka be Buddhist as you pointed out in the introduction?
   Admittedly, Hinduism is normally an easier grab on Monarch than Buddhism unless you get a 3C tile to work from the start or luck out with the non-mysticism civs.

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1. 
   
   Rather both, but with monarch I doubt you can get buddhism, only if you are really lucky and there is no religous leader around. Better be safe and with hinduism, then without both.
   
   

   patagonia said:

   [*]As far as I can tell (looking at the readme), the main AI improvements are in city placement and terrain development. It'll still suck at war which is where it's always been worst, so stick with Monarch initially. Better a tough, challenging game than a cakewalk.

   Click to expand...

   
   Couldn´t agree more. Stay with monarch!
   
   

   patagonia said:

   [*]Unless they've changed anything about resource distribution in the new patch, you're much more likely to have horses or iron than you are bronze, so consider making AH an early research priority - with the attack bonus against axes, chariots are now the anti-barb unit of choice.

   Click to expand...

Nods, Chariots got a real boost and are better then axemen in anti-barb duty.

Good points, and good luck with the ALC, Sisiutil!

patagonia said:

[*]Unless they've changed anything about resource distribution in the new patch, you're much more likely to have horses or iron than you are bronze, so consider making AH an early research priority - with the attack bonus against axes, chariots are now the anti-barb unit of choice.

Click to expand...

They did give barbarians spearmen which should make chariots powerful but not as ridiculously powerful as they were.

It would be more fun (and interesting) to play it by the seat of the pants.


Also, interesting that you see Organized as a warmongering trait, and I guess it can be used that way effectively, but I see it as encouragement to build settlers in order to take advantage of the same set of bonuses. It sure goes good with spiritual because you do not have to worry about switching inot costly civcs. Great synergy with these traits, I feel.

As for Spiritual, I think it is the single most powerful trait when used correctly. Financial? Sure, but so easy to use, even a caveman could do it! Apiritual you have to exploit the flexibility, but the payoffs are higher than financial if you are warmongering late game when a civic switch cost you 2-3+ turns and a lot of commerce. You can even swicth from slavery to rush and then Draft on the same turn, if you are savvy in your anticipatory preparations.

Last pestering words. Go down to Noble and wing it. Yes, the vocal enthusiasts will moan about it being too easy, but I truly believe that most followers (and Civ players in general) play at Noble or lower, so the greatest benefit and reach is to that (mostly) silent majority and it will bring in a bunch of fresh blood (no offense to the venerable, long tooths).


And why play Warlords and not play a new leader like the much mailgned (but most awesome) Brennus? This has me most heartbroken of all.





You are now returned to your previously scheduled thread....

patagonia said:

As far as I can tell (looking at the readme), the main AI improvements are in city placement and terrain development. It'll still suck at war which is where it's always been worst, so stick with Monarch initially. Better a tough, challenging game than a cakewalk.

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The AI may still suck at war but Blake improved it's pop rushing. I'm pretty certain Blake made some changes so that it was less likely to hoard all it's troops in it's cities but I'm unclear if that part made it into the patch.

Just a couple cents to throw on the green felt:

1. I suspect the new Wonder you'll be thinking about most will be the Great Wall, not Sankore. Unless the patch changed anything, Paper isn't a high priority for the AI, and you should be able to get it fairly easily if you're leading at that point. Unlike Stonehenge and the Oracle, the GW is a lot more dependant on the map you get, especially on Continents. Too much wasteland to the north or south can make it a lifesaver; a lot of neighbors and easy to fog bust terrain can make it a luxury, or even a waste of hammers.

2. Stick with Monarch, certainly. You've taken one of the best AIs out of the game (Gandhi), and the Continents map still favors the human player quite a bit. Combined with the group mind of the ALC, the differences shouldn't be that great.

3. The big changes- Vassal States, the new Wonders, Trebuchets, etc- will be a lot easier to learn than the new "flow" of the tech tree, in my experience. Remembering that you can't force Capitulation before Feudalism, for instance, was hard for me to remember right away, likewise with Engineering unlocking Trebs-- you'll know it in your head, certainly, but internalizing the changes can take a while. YMMV.

The University of Sankore is a good wonder....not great, but it does provide a nice little boost, comes on a tech the AI doesn't care for, and is fairly cheap hammer-wise. Plus, it lasts a good while and can be gotten at a key time in the tech race(i.e. the race for Liberalism)

As for Stonehenge....screw it. Your techs lend themselves quite nicely to Oracle, and pretty quick too(not to mention the likelihood of snagging Hinduism)! While your barking up that religious side of the tree, snag writing quick and capitalize with a CoL slingshot(which you should be able to pull pretty fast). The Great Wall isn't too hard to get(I'd say too easy if you have stone), but the AI values it and Masonry highly, in my experience, and you really shouldn't get too greedy......

LosBlack said:

in this first Warlords ALC, will you be doing any extra explaining/translating for those of us who do not play Warlords, or should i find a good reference manual somewhere?

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drkodos said:

It would be more fun (and interesting) to play it by the seat of the pants.

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Based upon this, some of you might prefer it if I make this my first-ever Warlords game? Then it would serve that purpose as well, as a sort of Warlords walk-through for those of us new to it. At the very least, I would be approaching the game with "beginner's mind", at least regarding the Warlords elements. In some ways, we'll all be in that boat, since the patch has just come out and we'll have to mutually adjust our gameplay accordingly. Not strategically, I don't think, but tactically.

This would also mean that I would start the game sooner, of course.

I like the idea. It's probably what I'll do.

Regarding drkodos' other point about the new leaders, I am committed to going through the civs in order, so after India will be Tokugawa of Japan, and then ALC 12 will be the first played as one of the new leaders of the expansion pack: Wang Kon of Korea. Looks like he'll be fun, especially since his UU and UB come fairly early in the game, and he has one of the new traits.

Sisiutil said:

Regarding drkodos' other point about the new leaders, I am committed to going through the civs in order

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You're going in alphabetical order by civilization name though, right? If you were so inclined, you could certainly rationalize backtracking to hit Carthage and Celtia before returning for India.

Carthage is one of the two or three standard suggestions for which leader to use in your first Warlords game (Ragnar and perhaps Wang Kon being the other one or two). Brennus is very underrated. His unique unit is kind of lousy, but Charismatic / Spiritual is outstanding, and his unique building isn't bad at all. Even the unique unit isn't so much bad (like the pre-patch jaguars) as it is not good. That is, it isn't ever worse than the regular unit. It just isn't usually a whole lot better.

I am really interested in seeing the Mausoleum in action though. I haven't played India since switching to Warlords (haven't played at all in several weeks actually), so I haven't had a chance to try it myself.

Sisiutil said:

so after India will be Tokugawa of Japan, and then ALC 12 will be the first played as one of the new leaders of the expansion pack: Wang Kon of Korea. Looks like he'll be fun, especially since his UU and UB come fairly early in the game, and he has one of the new traits.

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Toku has one of the new traits so you wan't have to wait that long, He's Agg/Prot probably be one of your favourate Warring Leaders Especially once you get into the industrial age Drafting units with 3 Free Promotions straight out of the City

Actually, I'd be a bit less inclined toward trying to score the cheap religions. The religion chase leaves you slow off the mark for worker techs, which delays the leverage of your UU. My quick analysis, drawing on memories of Vanilla (if you agree with the ideas, check that they are still right for warlords)....

Organized supports expensive civics and large empires. So you should be looking away from tight victory conditions like cultural and instead be looking toward domination or space.

The cheap courthouses are a big deal; unlocked by Caste System. Since you are Spiritual as well, this tech is a big deal as it unlocks another civic and a religion too.

Now, the goal here shouldn't be to rush to Code of Laws, because that misses the point - the goal isn't to have your big techs as early as possible, but to be able to leverage your big techs as early as possible - cheap courthouses don't mean very much when you have one city.

Given that this is Monarch, that probably means preparing for some relatively early war. That should make Sisiutil happy

With that in mind, instead of leaning on Mysticism in the opening, I'd lean on Mining. Get Bronzeworking finished, with the coincident warrior and worker poprush, chop out some expansion (either some warriors/settlers, or stonehenge ~ careful here, as I recall chopping now dumps hammers to the city rather than the top item in the queue) while developing the food tech.

Secure the copper if you can, and keep in mind the notion of zim zamming between Slavery and Caste System (ie, surplus food to run specialists) as you choose your city sites.

If you reach a good point to hurry out the Oracle, that's fine, but I think you still have time to lightbulb confucianism with the prophet from the Henge (not sure on this one). For this call I might end up relying on the specifics of the terrain (how much you crave Calendar impacts how hard you want to be pushing for Stonehenge), and the proximity of Creative civs.

If you are stretching yourself out early, don't forget that Currency becomes a bigger deal (how much bigger depends a lot on how you express the early expansion, but even internal trade routes help). You need Math to unlock Bureaucracy anyway.

And since I haven't gotten my Slavery article finished yet, let me expand on the Worker-pop formula: seven turns at 3/?/0 + 1 turn at 1/?/2 + 1 turn at 2 x 1/?/2 finishes a warrior, six more turns invested in a worker allows you to pop rush the worker if you researched Slavery out of the gate. The worker appears on the same turn if you built it from scratch, but you've gotten a "free" warrior out of the deal. You could shuffle things around a bit, to get the worker done a turn sooner and the warrior after the worker, but that's probably the wrong sequence when Organized.

(This last bit is someone else's technique - when BW out of the gate is the right play, I think this makes the play stronger, so I've been adopting it. I'm not generally fond of BW first, but it does seem like the right play for Asoka.)

OK, maybe that wasn't as quick as I had in mind....

If your going for an Early war and you want early level 3 units

Oracle Slingshot to Codes of Law and Assign a Priest in your Oracle City, that's 5GPP a turn so you'll pop theology with your Great Prophet in 20 turns more or less and start build your army with barracks and Theocracy civic

OR

Ignore Codes of Law for courthouses untill you second War with Cats, The Organised trait should be enough to keep your maintainance cost down when you expand by War.
Use your Oracle Slingshot for theology and start a really Early war with level 3 Units. Remember Theology Requires Writing just like Codes of Law.

johnny_rico said:

If you found an early reiigion, I've found the university to be a worthwhile pursuit. Even better than the minaret. I don't usually prioritize divine right so I'm not usually the one to build the minaret. The university, however, is available with paper (?), I think, which is a key tech in any game because of liberalism.

Those fast workers are clutch for chopping forest for early wonders.

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I'd say that the Spiral Minaret is slightly better than the University of Sankore as gold is actually worth more than beakers in many games. See my analysis in aelf's thread post 410.

A religio-scientific strategy works well for a Spiritual leader. The ability to switch into civics such as Caste System and Pacifism for a few turns allows efficient use of food and specialists (mainly scientists). Switching back to OR or Theocracy and Slavery allows cheaper buildings and missionaries or better units for war. Three of those key civics need a state religion. So if you need a religion make the most of it... right? Hence the association with Spiral Minaret and University of Sankore.

Those 2 wonders allow each city to get 4 gold and 4.4 beakers from a temple (half cost for Spiritual) and a monastry. They only costs about 100 hammers or 3 whipped pop when built with civic switching technique outlined above. The widespread temples allow cathedrals to be built in the larger cities for another +3 happiness and more gold and beakers. The temples and cathedrals also allow a lot of priests to be run (regardless of civics) and so that makes Angkor Wat a complimentary wonder.

I think the religio-scientific strategy works best with a mixed or hybrid economy. You need farms to feed the specialists and the slavery habit, but cottages don't hurt in areas that have limited food. You can run each city as best suits it and civics will be swapping regularly so no need to make hard and fast decisions about SE or CE, get the best bits of both with little loss. What is more that will suit Sisiutil's style, he can never stay in a civic for long or ever make up his mind about a victory condition

Hmmm, he can sit on a CoL slingshot for a little bit, even on Monarch I'm guessing. The AI is usually slow to build the Oracle anyways. Poly is a decent tech and priesthood is cheap as dirt, but maybe Sis is better off letting some one else found the religion, as VoU suggests. Why waste the beakers when you can get some one else doing the research for you?

UncleJJ said:

I'd say that the Spiral Minaret is slightly better than the University of Sankore as gold is actually worth more than beakers in many games. See my analysis in aelf's thread post 410.

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Also true. I suppose what I meant to say is since I've been using Warlords, the university of sankore fits in better with my strategy. I wouldn't argue (in fact, I'd agree) that gold is better than beakers especially by that point in the game. It's just that I find acquiring the minaret more often than not is a sidetrack to a path I'm pursuing. However, if it works out that I can acquire divine right in a peace treaty and/or have a GE laying around at the right time to rush the minaret, it's foolish not to go for it. The university/minaret combo provides an awful lot of extra beakers and gold, and works wonderfully when founding a religion (not to mention, both wonders produce until computers is researched). I'm more apt to go for the minaret when running a SE, instead of a CE or hybrid, where I have other priorities.

The University of Sankore/Spiral Minaret strategy was done by Aelf with great success. Perhaps try something new. You see to be talking about taking the way of the sword for this game, why not shoot for a conquest or domination victory. I would like to see a conquest victory personally. Just a thought.
By the way stay at monoarch.