OMG! Futurehermit's Gandhi Opening on Emperor

Ok,

So everyone knows my preoccupation with the pyramids.

But, the thing is: as soon as you go emperor+ pyramids becomes next to impossible and usually suicidal (getting overrun by barbs, etc.).

But if I told you it would be possible to get:

1) The Great Wall

2) The Pyramids

3) 3 total cities

4) By 1200 BC

5) On emperor skill level

6) WITHOUT STONE

Would you believe me???

BELIEVE IT (Check out the attached save)

Ok, so I'm going to post the strategy here and you can experiment with it, refine it, etc.

It does require 3 things:

1) Must play as Gandhi (may be possible with other phil leaders, i'm not sure)

2) Must have a handful of forests in capital with ok production capability (doesn't have to be great!)

3) Must get a bit lucky

Ok, so here's the strategy

1) Start by researching polyth to found hinduism (build a warrior). In my three attempts at this, I founded it every time, so it is possible on emperor. Of course it is possible to get beat to it, so this is where some luck is required (more on this below).

2) Then research bronze (build a worker--improve mines if possible; prechop forests).

3) Then research masonry (build a warrior, hopefully grow to size three).

4) Then research priesthood (start on great wall growing to size 4)

5) Chop great wall. Once it is chopped you no longer fear a barb invasion!!! (start building temple, CHOP IT IF AT ALL POSSIBLE).

6) Ok, this is where the magic happens. Once temple comes in, START WORKING A PRIEST. The extra gp pts will help you pop a great person prior to 1000BC thus allowing you to nab the pyramids!!! Without these extra gp pts your gp will come far too late to have any hope for pyramids at this skill level. Of course it requires a bit of luck since you're polluting the gp pool. I don't know the technical details of how the process works, but I can tell you that the odds start off at around 80% GE, 20% GP once you start working the priest and ends up around 60% GE, 40% GP when you pop the GP. The three times I tried this strat I got a GE every time

7) Now, you'll notice you still only have 1 city though. The nice thing is now you don't have to worry about barbs attacking new cities you're going to try and get up and running Your capital is at size 4 so use a combination of chops (if you have any forests left) and one 2-pop pop-rush to get two settlers out asap. I managed 1200BC in the save game I posted. The dates will of course be a bit variable, depending on # of forests + production capabilities of capital, but it is certainly possible!

With 3 cities, pyramids, and the great wall prior to 1000BC I would argue you are in excellent position to compete with the AI on emperor. You can use police state to crank your initial army of axes/chariots/swords (after hopefully trading for IW once you beeline to alphabet) and of course representation to run your powerful SE once you get your libraries up and running and your initial army pumped out.

The most, most exciting part about this strategy is that gandhi is the ultra powerful spiritual-philosophical. Philosophical of course is to the SE what financial is to the CE. Spiritual is amazing because it allows you to go between police state-representation, slavery-caste system, and OR-pacificism without any anarchy

And you'll notice that starting off with polytheism is not all bad since it is a prerequisite for literature (use your 2nd GE--don't work a priest anymore you want a GE next for sure--on the GL) and also for CoL (which you'll want to get asap for caste system and to unlock a philosophy lightbulb with your first GS!).

Ok, but what about if you don't found hinduism? I haven't tried this yet, but you can try for judaism. You're researching masonry and polyth anyways, so go for monoth. It would just be a matter if 1) you manage to found judaism; 2) you can get priesthood and your temple up and running in time. You could try experimenting with priesthood first (so you can go temple right away after founding judaism) and monoth first (so you can try and ensure monoth). Monoth opens up organized religion, so that isn't all bad either. Nice early production bonus for your barracks, libraries, etc.

And, what if you get a great prophet instead of a GE? Well, that sucks But hey, you can use him on the hinduism shrine and you can use that extra $$$ to help you in the rebuilding effort (so not all is lost!). The shrine also allows you to work extra priests so go for another early priest and go for an early theology lightbulb!

Good luck and let me know how it goes

I tried something similar in my games. Interesting strategy. But it doesn't work on immortal. And it is very expensive on Emperor as well. If you know you'r allone on island, you may try this, otherwise, all those shields and time are to be invested in early expension in my opinion.
Lots of things can go wrong, you said it yourself: not founding religion, not having bronze, horses in your capital, having aggresive civ near you, not getting GE from great people pool, etc,etc
But if danger is your middle name...

Danger is my middle name

I don't play on immortal, so that is ok. I understand that in the upper-upper skill levels you have to focus on certain openings only.

It's just that I previously had always included emperor in that equation. But now I believe that, at least with Gandhi, it is possible to ensure (with a bit of luck) getting pyramids without stone--which is what I was trying to achieve. Whether or not it puts you in too deep a hole to recover from remains to be seen. However, I think you should be ok. You don't have to fear barbs so as long as you don't have Monty next door it's just a matter of securing copper/horses/iron then using police state to crank out an army to recover with--not to mention recovering technologically using representation once libraries are up and running!

EDIT: Also, you don't need copper or horses in your capital imo. This is because you DO NOT HAVE TO FEAR BARBS All you need is a military resource claimable in your 2nd city spot so that you can start cranking units if you have an aggressive civ nearby. If you have peaceful neighbours all you need is a military resource in your 3rd city spot so that you have something to attack them with once you're ready to use police state to start cranking an army out.

*******

Ok, so I tried another game.

Guess what I got? 3 forests and no mines. So you say, now this for sure will not work?

Well, with some luck it is still possible (not by 1000BC though).

I managed 3 cities and pyramids by 500BC (still respectable considering the super low-hammer start).

I have attached the save (note that the horses in the capital came too late to be any use to the strategy )

P.S., I hope people will try and play these games and see if they can get wins and report back on how things went for them I will try and post a judaism opening tomorrow (if I can pull it off)

I thought Ghandi was industrius, not philosophical?

He is philosophical in Warlords.

This would not work with Raging Barbarians on Monarch, I can tell you that much.. I've timed trying to choprush the Great Wall and without stone it is almost certain that two or more barb warriors/archers will get at you before that wall is chopped, so youll need defenders... If the barbs slow your wall chopping down by even 10 turns you are probably going down since they will then literally swarm you..

Does anyone know the date at which barbs start crossing your borders? I've noticed that barb warriors/archers will generally avoid crossing your borders at first (though I think they will if there is a target of opportunity such as a worker next to them). Is there a script or something that tells them to start attacking at a certain date or is it just my dumb luck that they wander off in some other direction?

On higher level any strategy could be used. Trick is to choise exec one for each given situation.

This probably could work on Deity, if you have stone in fat cross. And you do not need religion, any GP hiring building will do.
Library, for example.
You would need to put out fogbusters on start and be a bit lucky in food department, but the only conditions would be:
1) stone in fat cross.
2) philosofical
3) AI not next door.

Tech you would need would be masonry/bronse working.

frob2900 said:

This would not work with Raging Barbarians on Monarch, I can tell you that much.. I've timed trying to choprush the Great Wall and without stone it is almost certain that two or more barb warriors/archers will get at you before that wall is chopped, so youll need defenders... If the barbs slow your wall chopping down by even 10 turns you are probably going down since they will then literally swarm you..

Does anyone know the date at which barbs start crossing your borders? I've noticed that barb warriors/archers will generally avoid crossing your borders at first (though I think they will if there is a target of opportunity such as a worker next to them). Is there a script or something that tells them to start attacking at a certain date or is it just my dumb luck that they wander off in some other direction?

Click to expand...

Well, I don't care to play with raging barbarians since that's not a default setting anyways. I don't care so much about getting this strat to work in any situation, but moreso just to get it to work on emperor with normal settings.

@ mutineer, while that's true, I'm trying to develop a strat to ensure pyramids WITHOUT stone

Ok, here is a Judaism Variant save. 3 cities + pyramids 875BC. Founded Judaism before researching priesthood and temple (even though I also founded hinduism--I was just going for JV no matter what). It could be faster given the right start.

In this save Kublai is right on our doorstep, and Shaka is on our continent as well, so it should be interesting

I think the JV might be the way to go anyways.

Having OR means your buildings will be built faster during the recovery period.

Having Police State means your military will be build faster during the recovery period.

Chop/pop-rush workers/settlers/workboats.

I also think this opening really maximizes the synergy of Gandhi's starting traits, techs, and uu:

Traits:

Spiritual--Making use of cheaper temple early and opening multiple early civics (Rep, PS, OR, Slavery); switching between Rep-PS, OR-Pac, and Slavery-CasteS quite early in the game really capitalizes on no anarchy.

Philosophical--Running powerful SE with pyramids

Mysticism--Founding early religion

Mining--Bronze of course

IMHO getting judaism with gandhi has no luck part.
It's the only one starting with mysticism and mining AFAIK = bonus to reasearch masonry = easy to get judaism.
I have the feeling this is true at any level and any circumstance (except totally screwed starting position)

cabert said:

It's the only one starting with mysticism and mining AFAIK

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Wang Kon also does, and he's Financial. I don't think he prioritizes religious techs much, though.

Yeah, I think Judaism is doable every time so as long as you don't get a totally screwed production start, it should be doable most games

Woot! "Guaranteed" pyramids with no stone on emperor! My dream has come true

Spiritual is amazing because it allows you to go between police state-representation, slavery-caste system, and OR-pacificism without any anarchy

Click to expand...

Amen brother. Wish more people would realize. Right after I play a game with a spiritual civ then play a game with a non-spiritual I think "Damn I wish I was spiritual"

^^^very true

*******

Ok, I've played around with this a bit more. Here's what I've found:

-Like Acidsatyr said, if you have an aggressor as a neighbour and they declare war on you, you're screwed

-If you CANNOT get your other two cities out by 1000BC you risk getting totally boxed in + even if you get them out (but especially if you don't), if you don't get a military resource (copper/horses/iron) you're also screwed.

If you start to get boxed in though, but you DO have a military resource (especially a metal), then I think you're actually in good shape because you should be able to take those cities and start expanding your empire

So, it certainly is a gamble, no doubt about it and it probably won't work every time (like any strat imo), but it's nice to know it's possible and I think if you can pull it off, it could be pretty powerful

I hope people report on some of the games I posted, that would make for some good discussion

Well done!. I also came up with the idea of using a temple and a priest but that was after i lost faith in the whole project so i have never tried it.

It's still a gambit though, summing up:

- failing to found a religion, this chance is very small, i only once missed hinduism out of 10 games or so (i usually go for an early religion if i see no happiness resources nearby), judaism will do in that case.

- Failing to build the Great Wall in time, happened to me sometimes with poor
starting locations, it's immediately game over when that happens you get slaughtered.

- Building GW but having a neighbour declare war (Acidsatyr). This has also happened to me with Ragnar (1000 BC or so) who was quite far away and i even had a few axes. I wonder if Ai's declare war faster when you have 2 wonders (don't think so really), or is Ragnar just extremely aggressive,i know we had an argument over religion.

- Getting boxed in but that can always be a problem, 3 cities at 1200 bc as in your first sample is expansion enough.

- The biggest problem i saw and the reason i didn't try is the mixing of Gp points. I think that you were really lucky to get the GE 3 times. On the other hand getting the prophet at this time and an early shrine is not bad either so you can still be well placed in this case. you have a reasonable chance at a GE later which will be good for GL or Angor wat.

I think it's a very good gambit with a good starting loc. Can you post your 4000 bc saves, see what they looked like?

futurehermit,

awesome strat.. going to have to give it a shot. have you tried it as egypt yet?? the obelisk is cheaper than a temple and lets you run 2 priests right away.. even w/o religion if I remember correctly. would make up for the fact that ramsses is ind rather than phi. industrius would help more I think because you could get the wall and an obelisk before you would without ind. and the 2 priests would be equivelant gpp from phi. but more hammers

give it a shot let me know what you think?

NaZ

i tried an emperor game with this gambit.
starting location was cool (loads of forests, wheat on a river, sheep, deers in a forest), and I had no problem getting the GW without stone, and no problem getting hinduism.
problem was I got a GP! To avoid having a second source of prophets, I settled him and I built the oracle while waiting for my second Great Person, since I had marble somewhat far from the capital but close enough to have it at this time...
took Metal Casting, rushed a forge, hired an engineer, and had better luck with the second great person , welcome the pyramids.
I also got the Great Library, and had a nice tech lead.
Only problem was I had only 2 cities... Nice productive ones, but still only 2.
So I attacked Stalin, took his nearest city and waited for healing.
My, what a stack he sent towards me!
He couldn't take back his city, but went for another one.
Back to 2 cities for 200 years...

Not a winning game, but the gambit went well

NaZdReG said:

futurehermit,

awesome strat.. going to have to give it a shot. have you tried it as egypt yet?? the obelisk is cheaper than a temple and lets you run 2 priests right away.. even w/o religion if I remember correctly. would make up for the fact that ramsses is ind rather than phi. industrius would help more I think because you could get the wall and an obelisk before you would without ind. and the 2 priests would be equivelant gpp from phi. but more hammers

give it a shot let me know what you think?

NaZ

Click to expand...

you won't have a good chance for the Great engineer (1/3 only!) + beware of the starting techs: egypt isn't the best client for early religions

Industrious civs probably have a better chance by just building the pyramids normally, running 2 gp's off a library or Egyptian obelisk unfortunately makes it less likely to get an engineer. Most of the cute GP tricks really need philosophical to be viable at high levels.