NEW World War II Europe Scenario

Hello

I have posted a new World War Two scenario in the CivII File DB. I would be interested to hear what people think about it.
The map is my own work, as is the game design (designed to play as Allies).
The graphics are a compilation of the best I could find from other games
designers (mostly Fairline/Catfish).
I have started work on an Ancient scenario and any comments about the
playability of the WWII scenario would be handy when considering how to
make the ancient one.

Thanks

Can you inlcude some info on the scenario here... maybe a download link, screenshots, description?

The scenario can be found here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=cat&id=84

This scenario is set during world war two in the European theatre.

It is designed to be played as the Allies.

There are four turns per month (48 per year) and the game starts in November 1941.

I started it at this date for several reasons:
-The computer is not too great at overseas invasions etc so by starting in late 1941 the Germans are near to their high tide point (They are in North Africa, have Crete and Norway and have overrun much of the USSR).

The Allies are pushed back almost as far as they can go. Now it is time to turn things around. Ahead lise the great invasions such as Torch, Husky and Overlord (something the AI playing as the allies would be incapable of doing).

The factions are: Allies, Axis, Soviets, Spain, Turkey, Finland and the Neutrals. I suppose Spain, Turkey and Finland would be somewhat playable also.

I have tried to ballance the game in favour of the AI to make it more of a challenge for the human player.

Each nation has one normal and one heavy armoured unit, as the game continues the stats in the rules files change (you have to save the game and swap them manualy) to represent improvements/deterioration in quality/quantity. Also the graphics change (so the germans start with one Pz38(t) and on PzIII and end the game with one Panther and one King Tiger).
This allows more room for other unit types!

The battle of the Atlantic is very important and events support the German U-Boat campaign. Trade from USA to Britain is essential for the allies.

Thats all I can think of at the mo as I am being nagged by the misses!

Will add screenshots once I work out how (my allowance is full).
There are screenshots at the link above also!

Here is the map as it starts in November 1941.

The only city not shown is the British Empire down the bottom of the Suez canal on the Arabian side. It is a long way from anywhere and has no road link to middle east. The only viable way to get too and from there is by sea (I normally have a couple of Freighters shuttling between there and Suez with reinforcements). The British Empire city is a large industrial base that can churn out troops for North Africa and the Middle East. It obviously represents Australia, New Zealand, India, and Africas contribution.

The USA is quite industrialised and has Boston, New York, Philadelphia Washington plus Halifax (Canadian). Trade and reinforcements need to be shipped to Britain from here to keep the war effort going. Beware the U-Boat wolfpacks in the Atlantic. Escorting freighters with battleships and aircover is essential. The USA is also a vital jumping off point for Torch (if you decide to recreate the invasion of French North Africa). It takes several turns to cross the Atlantic so plan ahead. Also beware traveling too close to Spain or Portugal as the AI gets a bit twitchy thinking you are after it!

Gibraltar and Malta are essential island bases too.

The USSR may look small but its eastern cities are industrialised and Soviet troops are cheep to produce. The Russians are also backed up by events to keep the Nazis at bay.

The Turkish and Spainish could join in on either side to be wary but try to stay on good terms. One idea would be an invasion of the Balkans with Turkey as an ally.

Hope you enjoy.

Have you finished it completely?

Some initial observations:

-Good work on the map! I like it a lot! Less river, replaced with ocean terrain though, and some strategic "bridges", could make it a bit more interesting.

-In my opinion war ships are WAAY to cheap. There's a lot of steel in a battleship...

-You know you can make mining just as effective on grassland terrain as on hills? This would eliminate the hills around Ruhr for instance.

-It would be much easier if you used batch files for the season changes. Check out Red Front for reference on how to use the batches on a constructive way. Also, you waste a lot of space on text events, when you rather could use them for something more useful, like create unit events, or goto events, ot make the AI more effective.

-Instead of the 'what if'-factor of spain and turkey, I'd much rather see Italy and Vichy-France as a civ - More relevant civs.

-It looks as you've used the ingame unit editor, which pretty much wipes out any signatures on the units. I know many of the unit creators want their signatures left with the units. It's a scenario creator's little tribute to the hard work they put down to make scenarios look better. You don't even need a fancy graphics-program to do this. I personally only use MS Paint to cut and paste units.

-You should pay some attention to the familiar problems of the Knight/Musketeer slot, and leave those slots to either barbarian or some insignificant AI civ.

-A game lasting 200 turns could take quite a lot of time to play. Maybe you could cut it down to 100. Also, would be more interesting if you could make the starting year in actual years and months, rather than turn number.

-And as you point out yourself, the tech tree is pretty dull right now. If you could make up some names and knit them together in a way that it makes sense, with seperate brancehes for land-sea-air, it would be much more fun. Technology should be fun to pursue. I can from the rules see that you have A LOT of unused techs. You know, to only get US units through events could be interesting. I really don't like that they are buildable. You could use more event space to create us units in America, to be shipped to Europe.

-You should gift Vichy-France to the neutral civ.

-I'd reccomend you to take a look at CurtSibling's cities gfx. They are exellent. The ones you are using are quite vintage by now.

-The acient peoples.gif looks quite odd in a ww2 context.

-I found the pigs resource quite humerous. Maybe you should make more "relevant" resources for the terrains?

-Railways usually work very bad in scenarios. I see that you only have them in Britain, which is the only playable civ, but usually it upsets the balance pretyt badly. Better with only roads if you ask me.

-The Science rate is in a poor shape. I see you have removed all science improvements. As far as I can tell, this means viturally no science progress by neither the playable allies nor the AI Axis/Soviets etc. There should be a clear upgrade in armoury and equipment. Otherwise it could get quite boring. I know you use it in the seasons versions, but you really should use the tech tree for something constructive. Combined with create units-events, it would at least have some effect.


All in all this has a lot of potential, but I'd put a lot more focus on technology, and upgrade in units and improved events. Good luck!

Eivind
Very nice to hear from you. I have admired your work for years now. Loved the Norwegian campaign for its scale and attention to detail. Also your Blitzkrieg series have been an inspiration. Thanks for the feedback, just what I was hoping for. Its easy to get caught up in your own train of thought.

With so many WWII scenarios having been made other the years I have the benefit of hindsight when I started mine. I wanted several things. Number one I wanted to build the biggest most accurate map possible. Secondly I wanted to make the game challenging for the player using events. Thirdly I wanted to try out some new ideas.
I could not see the point in remaking the same games that are already available, quite hard when there are so many good WWII scenarios already out there!
By far my most pressing concern was finishing the blasted thing, polished or not! Over the last 5-6 years I have started a Vietnam, Balkans WW1 era, WWI and several other scenarios and never finished them. I was determinde to at least get it on the site and improve it later.

I will address each of your points in turn to stop me waffling!
-Less Ocean-Rivers: I wanted the great rivers to act as barriers rather than transport routes. The great rivers (Rhine, Danube, Dneiper, Volga etc...) need to be crossed at strategic points (Kiev, Budapest, Nijmagen etc...).
Other than Calabria to Sicily I cannot see any worthwhile land bridges that would assist the AI. Where would you suggest?

-Cheep Warships: I agree with you on this point. The only problem (I read somewhers so it may well be wrong) is that if you make units more expensive then (20) 200 gold then there can be an anomaly where you can buy them for negative gold (nothing). If this is not correct then I would be glad to bump up the price of Battleships and Carriers as they make convoy escorting much easier (and therefore the game easier for the human player)!

-Grassland as mines: Interesting. I'm not 100% on this one. I suppose I could remove the Orchard terrain and make it an industrial square and only put it around industrial cities! Could work. I just though it made the Med look pretty!

-Bach files for season changes: A friend at work said the same thing. I would have loved to have done that but I am not very good with computers and ran out of time + could not work it out. I did ask Paul Mutica and Allard Hofelt for some advice, which they very kindly provided, but I was still too dull to sort it out! Deffinately something I could use some help with.

-Text events: Have just looked and there are a lot. Would have liked to add more Unit events but thought there shoud be some sort of reward for capturing key cities. May alter this a bit. Some Create units events only start working when you capture enemy cities (Ie. Russians get troops every 4 turns in Minsk and Kiev once they have possession). I will probably work on this too.

-Italy and Vichy France: By 1941 both of these countries had lost a lot of influence on the war. By giving Vichy to the neutrals they become much larger and more dangerous. Also this would mean that war with Vichy = War with Sweeden, Portugal and Switzerland, and I could not bring myself to do that.
As Italy and Vichy france were both occupied by the Nazis fairly soon after scenario starts it seems logical to jump the gun a bit and group them together. Also if you did make peace with the Italians of French then you cannot attack the Nazis from the Mediterranean.
Turkey and Spain seemed more vital to me. Spain could take on the British in Gibraltar and prevent the Torch landings. Turkey was historically a major concern for both sides and played a masterful game of diplomacy to remain neutral. Turkeys participation on either side could have proved decisive.

-Unit signatures: I agree 100%. I will rectify this in the next version. As I never expected to finish the game when I first compiled the game then it did not seem to matter. When I realised I would finish it I did not seem to have the time. I appologise for my lazyness and would like to thank all the creators for their work.

-Knights/Musketeers. As the game was set as Villages only I thought it would not matter too much. I think I compensated for obsolesence by doing the stats correctly and using events to create units. I have not thoroughly checked this yet (only got to about 50 turns) but have not seen any ill effect yet. Let me know if there are any problems.

-Long game: I like an epic but most people have other things to do and 100 turns may be a more realistic total and would make reaching the objectives more pressing. One interesting aspect would be Allies vs USSR after the Nazis are beaten.

-Tech Tree: I would very much like to expand and improve this aspect of the scenario but at the time getting a workable version finished was my priority. Suggestions would be appreciated as this can be modified drastically.

-Cities: Will take a look at the ones you suggest. I quite liked my (pilfered) ones. What I often do is change the graphics to my own preferences when I play other peoples scenarios. Each to their own!

-Peoples Gif: I agree it does look a bit odd. I pinched this one from Paul Mutica as it was one of my favorites and then I forgot about it. I would like to try and modify it slightly to look a bit more periodic. If anyone feels like having a go then please feel free.

-Resources: Once again more aesthetic that historically based. Suggestions would be welcome.

-Railroads: Totally agree with you there Eivind. Railroads + Human Player = Goodbye AI. The reason for putting RR in USA and Britain was merely to make organisation of D-Day type troops into camps/storage dumps more straight forward. I could remove them though. I guess that may make allied units in transit more vulnerable to raids by the Luftwaffe (instead of Me109 kamikaze attacks on Dover!).

-Science rate: This is deliberately bad. The aim was to force the Allied player into transatlantic trade by sea if they wanted to survive economically. This would make the battle of the Atlantic a vital strategic area.
If I gave the allies technology improvements they could alter the tax rate and therefor skip the war with the U-Boat Wolfpacks.
The other factor is the limited nature of my Tech Tree. By limiting science rate I could ensure that advances happen at roughly the right time. This is something I will deffinately be working on to expand and improve.

-Events: I ran out of space for events. I tried using multiple events files but could not get it to work. The ones I chose were intended to keep the game as challenging for the Human player as possible but until I have played the game all the way through I cannot tell if this was successful. I will probably try and improve on this so any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks again for the feedback. My mind is already buzzing with new ideas.
Have to go out to New Years eve party now.

Hope everyone has a very happy one!!!

Gelion said:

Have you finished it completely?

Click to expand...

Gelion
The game is complete and playable. It is only designed to be played as the Allies as the Tech tree is for Allies only and the stats of the AI nations are designed to make it hard for the human played. Play as Germany and you will probably win in a few turns!

As you can see from my reply to Eivind I now intend to work on some issues and try and release an updated version, but I have played through the game up to about turn 50 and found it worked fine!

Thank you I am downloading it now


First note: Why are Soviet graphics arabic?

Gelion
I have been confused by this for a while now. If you go into cheat mode and swap over players you will notice that the city graphics of other nations change (Ie while playing as Soviets change to be the Turkish player and the Soviet graphics will change to European style!)
As I had designed the game to be played as the Allies this did not seem too big a deal. Have just checked and it seems to be ok if you play as the Turks or the Neutrals. All the others go wrong (Axis, Spainish and Finish).
One solution would be to change the graphics around yourself (which is a bit naff!). Another solution would be to create several CIty style Gif's, one for each nation, and swap them over before starting the game.
The final, and preferable solution would be to work out the exact reason for this happening and eliminate it. I did try while I was making the scenario but got fed up! If anyone knows how to solve this problem please let me know as I will sort it for version II.

Without looking at the scenario, it sounds like this problem. Use CivTweak to fix.

Will give it a try Wob
I would just like to say I am a great fan of your graphics. I have used several in my scenario. I hope you do not mind. I apologise for wiping off your signature, not done intentionally. When I started compiling graphics a few years ago into epoch groups I set them all against a straight purple background and wiped out all of the pink. At the time I was only intending to use them to mod some scenarios for my own ammusement and didn't realy intend on creating one of my own. Now I am going to have a bit of a job putting them all back on.
Im just glad to see so many people are still interested in CivII.

The bulk of my WWII efforts were 24-bit colour conversions of what were basically monochrome units made for 8-bit versions of the game (mostly Nemo's and Fairline's stuff). There are better icons around these days, as Fairline's since switched to 24-bit colour and continues to produce units for the game - evolving his skills in the process. Generally, if units are posted in graphics threads, they're fair game provided proper credit is given. An exception would be those units reserved for unreleased scenarios.

As to the signatures: well I'm used to having mine cut, including by people who are precious about such things. There are also units around which bear my signature by mistake. The correct signatures for my WWII modifications can be found on my Units page. I know for a fact that Fairline would like you to restore his mark. The longer you leave it, the more likely it is that other people will download your files and propagate the problem.

Good point CF. I will go through the units files and resolve this. Should be quite quick to paste the signatures on as most are yours or Fairlines. Only problem is there are about ten different units files altogether. Doh!
What programme do you use to do the 24-bit colour conversions?

Hello again!. I'm glad you ejoyed my scenarios and it's my pleasure giving feedback! I know myself how much it means to get thorough feedback on scenario work, without which I'd given up years ago.

Btw, there are more scenario discussion in the civ2 Scenario League section over at Apolyton than there is here. I just occationally drop in here to see what's happening and came over this, and thought I'd help out with whatever I could.

Will also address each of the points in chronologically, but this time add a number to it, in case you want to respond further!



01. Less Ocean-Rivers:
Ah, forget this point then. I just hate the road effect rivers have. Makes no sense in modern scenarios. There's no way to remove it without remving the road effect altogether. Hencely I like to just make rivers into ocean terrain.

02. Cheep Warships:
I think it's over a 1000 you mean. As long as you stay under 1000 shields (1000 beeing very expensive, the value I gave ICBMs in my First Strike scenario) all will be well. Right now your most expensive ships, the BB and the Carrier, are 200 shields. Your cruiser costs 80, which is 40 shields cheaper than a US fighter(!). You really should at least double the price of ships.

03. Grassland as mines:
This is very easily modifiable in the terrain rules. In all my scenarios I make it possible to mine grassland, but usually I make it less profitable and usually it take twice as long as on hills. But implementing it here with maybe something similar, you would at least eliminate the hills you have all over where it is pretty much flat terrain. Also you would be able to pillage as you conquer.

And regarding the Orchard, I guess you can find something more useful. In making La Belle Epoque I too had a terrain mostly for it's looks - the temperate grassland - but eventually found it to be quite useful, as I made the "European/American" grassland to produce more trade than the temperate grassland (in the colonial lands). I'm not sure how your season changes work, but as you have no Med special terrain I reckon that North Africa as well gets winterised, as it to has grassland and plains. For a smart way of getting winter only in selected squares, take alook at my newest version of Blitzkrieg 1936 (v. IV). It uses mapcopy via a batch to copy a pre-made winterised map to the save file (consisting of tundra), and vica verca for summer.

And speaking of terrain - I think you should redo the values for the wasteland. Right now it's more fertile and rewarding a terrain than grassland. Wasteland shouldn't yield more than 1 food alone.

04. Bach files for season changes:
You really should give this a try, as I can see it would fix a lot of the issues you have. Just take a red front batch file, rename it from *.bat to *.txt, and study how it's done. If you still are coming no way I will offer my services - free of charge

05. Text events:

06. Italy and Vichy France:
I understand your approach is the what if, whereas I personally like the what if under historical guide lines better. I would include Italy for the same reason you chose to have Finland a seperate civ.

Regarding Vichy, it was only annexed because the US invaded North Africa and the Germans used it as a pretext to "protect" the rest of France. Having Germany occupying French North Africa is just a-historical. But then again, I'm very rigid when it comes to historical accuracy in my scenarios, and would be less open for historical compromises. Having Germany controlling Vichy-France from the bat, you'd certainly not be the first one, so fear not my friend.

07. Unit signatures:
Yep, all's been said here I guess...

08. nights/Musketeers:
Very well!

09. Long game:
Once a scenario is done, according to the pre-set amount of turns, there's nothing that stops a player from continuing pthe play.

10. Tech Tree:
My suggestion is as mentioned before. Turn the tech tree into a "US reinforcements tree", using the events to create units. If you have a batch system you could multiple events to have numerous such events. Right now you can build US units in Britain, which seems odd to me.

11. Cities:
Of course, each to their own. Gfx to me is not as important as the gamplay, but the newest efforts of CurtSibling are quite impressive. You can find his city gfx in the Gfx showcase at Apolyton.

12. Peoples Gif:
Also here CurtSibling is the master!

13. Resources:
Certainly, didn't mean to poke at you. It's just that it doesn't take much effort to change from "sunflowers" resource to "Factory Complexes" or something else ww2 esque.

Oh, and regarding the city gfx "problem", Catfish is on it. Use CivTweak and co-ordinate what you save there with the city style in the @LEADERS-rules.

Good luck again!

Werd100 said:

What programme do you use to do the 24-bit colour conversions?

Click to expand...

Anything that supports layers is good, eg, later versions of Paint Shop Pro, Photoshop and The GIMP. I use Paint Shop Pro 9.01. The GIMP is freeware, so there's a quality graphics editor on a plate if you want it.

Eivind IV said:

04. Bach files for season changes:
You really should give this a try, as I can see it would fix a lot of the issues you have. Just take a red front batch file, rename it from *.bat to *.txt, and study how it's done.

Click to expand...

You can right-click BAT files and select edit. When creating multiple-choice batch files, it'd be a good idea to adopt the method described by Mercator in this thread now that Windows 9x is obsolete.

Thanks Wob
Bring out the Gimp! Have had a quick look, and it looks straight forward enough. Not sure if it will make up for my lack of artistic skill but I may be able to mod a few units!
I have got a copy of Photoshop lying around somewhere that I have never used. Did not think of using it for Civ!

Re: Batch files
I looked at Mercators post. I remember having problems when playing scenarios a few years back, at the time I just soldiered on, thinking about it I probably did not get the best (intended) out of the scenarios. May go back some time and re-play them properly.
I will have a play around with this and work out the mechanics so hopefuly version 2 will be a bit slicker. A workmate who has played the scn moaned about having to manually swap files but was not willing to help me out by showing me how to do it. Now I can do it myself! Wuhahahahahahahahaha!!!

Eivind
Thanks for the response. I admire thoroughness, will just go over a couple of things:
01. Think I may have missunderstood your point in first post. Glad we agree though! I believe rivers are a double edged sword and should be used according to needs of scenario. I suppose in a sense thay are useful for transport (1/3 movement) but I prefer them as a barrier. I suppose they could be both. An example may be a Vikings in Russia scenario where the longships could navigate the great rivers of Russia. I do believe the Vikings traveled down as far as Constantinople and the Mediteranian via this route.

02. I thought I may have been wrong on this point. Probably misunderstood twhat I read. This is good though! I wanted the Battle of the Atlantic to be hard. Making warships more expensive will aid this. Also I did not want Amphibious invasions to be decided bu Battleship bombardment. I suppose that at double the price the risk of losing a Battleship against a coastal fort will make most players wary.

03. It would make sense to allow mines but make them harder to build on grassland. Would make map more accurate. Wonder if the AI would start building them everywhere? The pillaging affect would be useful if you played as the Germans (if they were playable) and had to withdraw (ie. scorched earth policy). By the same token it would be good for a game about invasion of USSR played from Soviet side.

04. Batch files. I am going to have a play around with these. As I said in my response to Wobbegong I have had issues with this in the past. I suppose you learn something new every day. Will give you a shout if I get stuck!

06. I see what you mean here. Not sure if we will ever agree on this point. Pity there cant be more nations! I suppose I could make Finland part of the Axis leaving a space free for Italy or Vichy. Another option would be to add Spain to the Neutrals. I would never sacrifice Turkey as they are essential to the game in my opinion.
Re: Vichy. I see what you mean about historical accuracy. That is one of my concerns too. My point would be that if yo include Vichy and then the Allies invade North Africa how could the Germans be coaxed to occupy Southern France? Using events would take up a lot of space. I think Vichy=Axis is a compromise that works in this scenario. If the game was starting earlier (ie. before invasion of France or when france still had Syria and Levant) then things would be different.
Re: Italy. I think playing with Italy would also make deployment of Africa corps a bit tricky.

One other option is to make the Vichy troops in North Africa barbarians!?

I find these kind of problems both a blessing and a curse. As a designer you have to weigh up the best option. Would still be nice to have more nations. I look forward to any thoughts you have on this.

09. Game length. I will need to play all the way through to see if this game length is right. It makes sense in my Turn dating system. May alter the length in version 2 whith the new improved tech tree!

10. Good idea. Will need to play with Batch files to see what I can come up with. Just to clarify this, is it possible to have multiple events files ie. one for 1941, another for 1942 etc... When I tried to do this by manually changing over events files they were not read by the game. What is the reason for this and how exactly do Batch files work? (If all this is all explained in another thread then please point me there). I am a bit slow on the uptake with most things technical!
The US troops in Britain paradox was tot a major concern to me when building the game but will be addressed in version 2. When I play I impose rules upon myself. I suppose players interested in historical accuracy would do the same. Players less concerned can do as they please as long as they enjoy themselves.

11. I had a look on Apolyton last night and saw some of Curt Sibling's work. Will check out his cities. Will come back to Apolyton in a bit.

13. No offence was taken. I just built a pretty map to begin with. Would make sense to add more themed resource graphics. Another thing for my versio 2 todo list!

Thanks again for the input!

Civ2 Scenario League section over at Apolyton

I have just registered for Apolyton forums and its like Santas grotto in there. Like the first time I found this site in fact!

I have browsed the web for the last four years or so looking for nice graphics or a new scenario. When I had looked at Apolyton as an unregistered outsider I was not that impressed. The scenario download collection looked a bit brief and was full of pretty poor looking efforts from the last century.
I did not realise that the real action was in the forums.

At the moment I do not know where to begin. I think I may start by grabbing as many cool graphics as I can for my archive (with signatures intact!).
I am going to hold off posting my WWII scenario there until I have resolved the Units gif signature issue as it seems like a sore point!

I will continue this thread as I have got some excellent feedback and am a big fan of the Civ Fanatics site! I gather Apolyton is where it is all going on though so I will be dipping my toes into the water there too!